Before I start with this first chapter to the Herakles novel I’m working on, shout out to Thalia The Muse of Comedy 🎭 for her excellent advice, support and friendship.
For the record, I didn't read this because I thought it was political. I clicked on it praying that it wouldn't be. So be sure to factor that into your statistics...
This is a very interesting take on the Herakles story. I'm looking forward to more!
One minor thing--unless you're changing the genealogy, Creon is Oedipus's uncle, not his brother.
That also raises some potentially irritating questions about chronology. (I encountered them in my own work with the Herakles and Oedipus stories but never really developed a good answer for them.)
Creon is king in his own right for only about fifteen minutes (the time between the deaths of Eteocles and Polynices in the battle of the seven against Thebes, and the point at which Creon is overthrown by the elders after causing the deaths of Antigone, etc. (as documented in the play, "Antigone" by Sophocles). Clearly, Herakles slaughters his Theban family long before that.
But Creon was acting king on two other occasions: during the very short period between the death of Laius and the crowning of Oedipus after his defeat of the Sphinx; after Oedipus blinds himself when he discovers he has inadvertently killed his father and married his mother, up to the point at which Eteocles and Polynices come of age. Thus, the only interval long enough for the Herakles incident to fit is the latter.
The problem with that is that the myths seem to descend from two different storytellers ignorant of each other's work. None of Creon's other children or nieces and nephews are mentioned in any version of the Megara story, which has even led some writers to suggest that the Creon in the Herakles story is a different man. There isn't any room for another Creon in the traditional king's list, however. In the same way, neither Megara nor the Herakles connection is ever mentioned in any version of the story of Oedipus and his kin.
Greek mythology is beautiful--but it's also messy. It takes a lot of work to draw a storyline coherent enough for modern readers out of its incredibly varied and inconsistent stories. You do a great service by tackling such a task.
Worst part is I love these stories and made a stupid mistake, I hate making them. I know these stories inside and out, and yet go and goof up like that.
I'll be more thorough with my research, thanks Bill I appreciate it as always.
I'll keep my Greek Myths & Herakles books I have on my desk nearer at hand and will from now on be consulting them religiously for this tale.
It’s not a stupid mistake. The material is so complicated that it is easy to get confused. It happens to me all the time. (And I too have my reference books nearby.)
As far as doing what you want with Creon (mentioned in one of your other comments), the ancient Greek themselves took liberties with their material all the time. In “Oedipus,” Sophocles makes Oedipus’s adoptive parents, Polybus and Merope, king and queen of Corinth, even though in every other myth that refers to them, they are the rulers of Sicyon. As for Herakles, a lot of the more negative myths about him were probably introduced after the Dorians claimed descent from him. And when the Corinthians grew tired of having Sisyphus named as their founder, they invented Corinthus, the son of Zeus, as a founder instead.
Good point about keeping the reference books nearby though I think its a good memory exercise to memorize stuff as best one can. I’ll do a more thorough research though, and maybe I could do a book-club of it on my yt channel to help motivate me.
As to Creon good point, same goes for Herakles’ negative myths never put much stock in those as the older ones seemed quite a bit different from the latter-day negative ones. I like Herakles in the earliest stuff and as a positive figure, I like to fancy he was the OG Conan the Cimmerian in some ways and intend to full on do that take more.
You're indeed right it is a VERY different Creon, only a few fuse them together, eh what the heck I've corrected the error and credited you with catching it. Appreciate it, you just improved my story a thousand fold with your criticism, knowledge and wisdom.
Thanks, I've about 5-6 other webnovels I'm working on here. I've also begun putting up on Substack a few French webnovels also.
Most of the novels are either mythic-adventure stuff, or Silmarillion styled stuff. This is meant to be a middle-ground between the two.
I appreciate the review, and hope our (as Crown was co-written) work wasn't too bad. I'm very nervous, as that was a work that we had fun working on and poured a lot into.
We picked Crown of Blood because it came highly recommended to us at Virtual Pulp. But if you prefer me to review any other of your works just let me know. We will post official review on our website with links to buy book and join you here on substack
Excellent. I am still bookmarking this for a future read and in-depth analysis since I know myself and many of our subscribers are interested in this genre and prosaic style
I’m currently working on it, this was the first chapter I published here.
I write several webnovels, then when they are completed I publish them (or hope to). So far, I’ve revised Caladbohlg and Darkspire Conspiracy and sent them to a publisher (they’re being reviewed). I’m also working to complete Swift-Shadow Murders, then will seek to finish Jex the Hero, before Crown of Blood Part 2.
Μπράβο! This is a masterful piece of writing, mon ami! It's like you were there in the room with my oracle and me all those years ago :D (I'll even forgive the insinuation that there were some events even MY oracles could not have foreseen! Mwahaha. I kid. I kid!)
Above all, you expertly tell a taught and tragic tale here that and does a phenomenal job of fleshing out those involved, regardless of their statuses as mythic heroes or minor players in the annals of history.
For example, I found the following passage recounting Creon's reflections on Megara's untimely death particularly compelling:
"His daughter, who had raced along the palace halls, singing as she went and who had dreamt of marriage and love, even as she had insisted on carrying away every puppy she could find in the kennels to her bedchambers. This girl that had played with dolls, and devoted herself to games that had included noble-girls, merchant daughters and even servant-girls was now gone. That same girl that had loved to report to his wife at even the most unseemly of hours, the sort of gossip that enormously annoyed her husband on more than one night, was now gone."
As well as the laconic phrasing of the following passage:
"Always his advisors and his wife would say to him, “In time she will grow bored. The humiliation of her situation, the lowliness of being a wife to such a man will occur to her.”
Yet it never did."
The pride, rage, and shame shared among Iphicles and Alcides at the Pythia's climactic pronouncement strikes me as pitch perfect as well. The entire piece does a phenomenal job of humanizing this mythic tale of tribulation and redemption.
Speaking of which, I can't wait to read the next installment. Keep up the great work!
Sorry for the implication about your all-knowing Oracle! Hahahaha I must now go before the next chapter to atone, and accomplish 3 times as many labours as Herakles to atone for the shame!
But anyways, I think what was tricky was recounting the events without fully doing it. Recounting the tale from the perspectives of those around Alcides, but not his own. I really wanted to but Dan told me, ‘Don’t you’ll spoil the whole thing if you do, wait a chapter.’ so I did. Now I know he made the right call, since you approve so heavily.
Haha! I think you have already done more than enough heavy lifting with all of your fantastic articles here to rival the labours of Herakles. I admire (and envy haha) your ability to publish so many wonderful pieces with such celerity!
And I can totally understand why you had wanted to recount the story that way, and I am sure that could have worked as well, but after reading the final version I do think Dan's approach was very novel and compelling, and you pulled it off admirably.
Haha thanks, when it comes to the essays it is just that we plan them well in advance, and when we go out into the forest everyday we discuss the finer points of a book or movie or video-game in great detail. Analyzing the themes, motifs and stories and characters, and also our own stories.
It is those 1hour walks that power the essays. But being autistic we both keep our event-days schedules hereon Substack precisely because it helps frame things for us, and helps us carefully keep things bustling along. Macabre Mondays we might discuss Horror fiction, Tuesdays we may discuss Zelda or LOTR, and so on, Thursday ancient tales and epics, Fridays Star Wars, and Sundays Japanaese lit and such.
But as to the story, yes I do think that Dan helped improve this story, he really didn’t like the first draft (neither did I), and so I spent a good chunk of the summer toiling and trying to figure it out until I ‘cracked’ it a week ago. If I did anything admirably it was thanks to him (and the Holy Spirit hehe).
That sound like an excellent system you've crafted there that works well for you, and for all of us too since we get a steady stream of great writing : )
We've been tricked, we've been backstabbed and we've been quite possibly, bamboozled.
In a good way.
Hehehehehe happy to have tricked, backstabbed, and bamboozled!
I love Herakles, and am keen to get into his grief next time (this was an intro chapt).
For the record, I didn't read this because I thought it was political. I clicked on it praying that it wouldn't be. So be sure to factor that into your statistics...
This is a very interesting take on the Herakles story. I'm looking forward to more!
One minor thing--unless you're changing the genealogy, Creon is Oedipus's uncle, not his brother.
That also raises some potentially irritating questions about chronology. (I encountered them in my own work with the Herakles and Oedipus stories but never really developed a good answer for them.)
Creon is king in his own right for only about fifteen minutes (the time between the deaths of Eteocles and Polynices in the battle of the seven against Thebes, and the point at which Creon is overthrown by the elders after causing the deaths of Antigone, etc. (as documented in the play, "Antigone" by Sophocles). Clearly, Herakles slaughters his Theban family long before that.
But Creon was acting king on two other occasions: during the very short period between the death of Laius and the crowning of Oedipus after his defeat of the Sphinx; after Oedipus blinds himself when he discovers he has inadvertently killed his father and married his mother, up to the point at which Eteocles and Polynices come of age. Thus, the only interval long enough for the Herakles incident to fit is the latter.
The problem with that is that the myths seem to descend from two different storytellers ignorant of each other's work. None of Creon's other children or nieces and nephews are mentioned in any version of the Megara story, which has even led some writers to suggest that the Creon in the Herakles story is a different man. There isn't any room for another Creon in the traditional king's list, however. In the same way, neither Megara nor the Herakles connection is ever mentioned in any version of the story of Oedipus and his kin.
Greek mythology is beautiful--but it's also messy. It takes a lot of work to draw a storyline coherent enough for modern readers out of its incredibly varied and inconsistent stories. You do a great service by tackling such a task.
Worst part is I love these stories and made a stupid mistake, I hate making them. I know these stories inside and out, and yet go and goof up like that.
I'll be more thorough with my research, thanks Bill I appreciate it as always.
I'll keep my Greek Myths & Herakles books I have on my desk nearer at hand and will from now on be consulting them religiously for this tale.
It’s not a stupid mistake. The material is so complicated that it is easy to get confused. It happens to me all the time. (And I too have my reference books nearby.)
As far as doing what you want with Creon (mentioned in one of your other comments), the ancient Greek themselves took liberties with their material all the time. In “Oedipus,” Sophocles makes Oedipus’s adoptive parents, Polybus and Merope, king and queen of Corinth, even though in every other myth that refers to them, they are the rulers of Sicyon. As for Herakles, a lot of the more negative myths about him were probably introduced after the Dorians claimed descent from him. And when the Corinthians grew tired of having Sisyphus named as their founder, they invented Corinthus, the son of Zeus, as a founder instead.
Good point about keeping the reference books nearby though I think its a good memory exercise to memorize stuff as best one can. I’ll do a more thorough research though, and maybe I could do a book-club of it on my yt channel to help motivate me.
As to Creon good point, same goes for Herakles’ negative myths never put much stock in those as the older ones seemed quite a bit different from the latter-day negative ones. I like Herakles in the earliest stuff and as a positive figure, I like to fancy he was the OG Conan the Cimmerian in some ways and intend to full on do that take more.
You're indeed right it is a VERY different Creon, only a few fuse them together, eh what the heck I've corrected the error and credited you with catching it. Appreciate it, you just improved my story a thousand fold with your criticism, knowledge and wisdom.
I'm currently in the process of reading and reviewing Crown of Blood for virtualpulp.net but this is very interesting content as well
Thanks, I've about 5-6 other webnovels I'm working on here. I've also begun putting up on Substack a few French webnovels also.
Most of the novels are either mythic-adventure stuff, or Silmarillion styled stuff. This is meant to be a middle-ground between the two.
I appreciate the review, and hope our (as Crown was co-written) work wasn't too bad. I'm very nervous, as that was a work that we had fun working on and poured a lot into.
We picked Crown of Blood because it came highly recommended to us at Virtual Pulp. But if you prefer me to review any other of your works just let me know. We will post official review on our website with links to buy book and join you here on substack
Non, I prefer Crown of Blood, it works.
Excellent. I am still bookmarking this for a future read and in-depth analysis since I know myself and many of our subscribers are interested in this genre and prosaic style
Hahaha, if you want here’s my Silmarillion styled story to boot for down the road, it is at I believe about 8-9 chapters or so;
It is even more prosaic, though I don’t know how people might feel about it.
https://open.substack.com/pub/canadianculturecorner/p/the-first-book-of-the-olympnomachi-7ea?r=qb3f8&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
Read The Silmarillion 3 times and I still discover new elements in it every time. Will probably read this after I'm done with Crown of Blood 👍
Is this part of a full length book or just a webnovel?
I’m currently working on it, this was the first chapter I published here.
I write several webnovels, then when they are completed I publish them (or hope to). So far, I’ve revised Caladbohlg and Darkspire Conspiracy and sent them to a publisher (they’re being reviewed). I’m also working to complete Swift-Shadow Murders, then will seek to finish Jex the Hero, before Crown of Blood Part 2.
So yes to both.
Μπράβο! This is a masterful piece of writing, mon ami! It's like you were there in the room with my oracle and me all those years ago :D (I'll even forgive the insinuation that there were some events even MY oracles could not have foreseen! Mwahaha. I kid. I kid!)
Above all, you expertly tell a taught and tragic tale here that and does a phenomenal job of fleshing out those involved, regardless of their statuses as mythic heroes or minor players in the annals of history.
For example, I found the following passage recounting Creon's reflections on Megara's untimely death particularly compelling:
"His daughter, who had raced along the palace halls, singing as she went and who had dreamt of marriage and love, even as she had insisted on carrying away every puppy she could find in the kennels to her bedchambers. This girl that had played with dolls, and devoted herself to games that had included noble-girls, merchant daughters and even servant-girls was now gone. That same girl that had loved to report to his wife at even the most unseemly of hours, the sort of gossip that enormously annoyed her husband on more than one night, was now gone."
As well as the laconic phrasing of the following passage:
"Always his advisors and his wife would say to him, “In time she will grow bored. The humiliation of her situation, the lowliness of being a wife to such a man will occur to her.”
Yet it never did."
The pride, rage, and shame shared among Iphicles and Alcides at the Pythia's climactic pronouncement strikes me as pitch perfect as well. The entire piece does a phenomenal job of humanizing this mythic tale of tribulation and redemption.
Speaking of which, I can't wait to read the next installment. Keep up the great work!
Sorry for the implication about your all-knowing Oracle! Hahahaha I must now go before the next chapter to atone, and accomplish 3 times as many labours as Herakles to atone for the shame!
But anyways, I think what was tricky was recounting the events without fully doing it. Recounting the tale from the perspectives of those around Alcides, but not his own. I really wanted to but Dan told me, ‘Don’t you’ll spoil the whole thing if you do, wait a chapter.’ so I did. Now I know he made the right call, since you approve so heavily.
Haha! I think you have already done more than enough heavy lifting with all of your fantastic articles here to rival the labours of Herakles. I admire (and envy haha) your ability to publish so many wonderful pieces with such celerity!
And I can totally understand why you had wanted to recount the story that way, and I am sure that could have worked as well, but after reading the final version I do think Dan's approach was very novel and compelling, and you pulled it off admirably.
Haha thanks, when it comes to the essays it is just that we plan them well in advance, and when we go out into the forest everyday we discuss the finer points of a book or movie or video-game in great detail. Analyzing the themes, motifs and stories and characters, and also our own stories.
It is those 1hour walks that power the essays. But being autistic we both keep our event-days schedules hereon Substack precisely because it helps frame things for us, and helps us carefully keep things bustling along. Macabre Mondays we might discuss Horror fiction, Tuesdays we may discuss Zelda or LOTR, and so on, Thursday ancient tales and epics, Fridays Star Wars, and Sundays Japanaese lit and such.
But as to the story, yes I do think that Dan helped improve this story, he really didn’t like the first draft (neither did I), and so I spent a good chunk of the summer toiling and trying to figure it out until I ‘cracked’ it a week ago. If I did anything admirably it was thanks to him (and the Holy Spirit hehe).
That sound like an excellent system you've crafted there that works well for you, and for all of us too since we get a steady stream of great writing : )
Thanks, appreciate the compliment, the ones that take the most time are the fiction stories.