"I mean you exist in a universe where men are slaughtering each other in full plate and chainmail, and you choose a bikini?"
The fact that she can walk around that universe in a bikini and not get sexually attacked is a sign that she owns the outfit and what it represents. She knows people are going to expect that she's a helpless damsel, so for her to suddenly come on all bad-ass dressed like that so suddenly on her opponents is pretty gutsy.
The first fictional character I created when I decided to become a professional writer was Jefferson Ball, a canine variant on Sonja in a sci-fi universe who does her one better by wearing a monogrammed bikini. The major difference is that, while Jefferson THINKS that she is heroic, she's actually extremely inept at presenting the image. Basically, I got exposed to Sonja-types so much when I was younger that I decided to play it for laughs, since the girl-boss characterization can be jokey sometimes: https://books2read.com/u/mKrAoB
Ummm. I will confess to not being a Conan fan, in any sense... but surely you see the difference between what goes on the cover and what goes in the book? And thus what we would see in a movie?
Saying, in a book, "He had a shirt on" does not 'cover' the character in nearly the same way as having him have a shirt on in a film.
I have a different take on it. I always thought Red Sonja was supposed to a love interest for Conan, one he rejected and left to wander the world. We know what Conan thinks about women. They fall into two camps. The seraglio or at his side swinging a weapon. He has fought alongside Xena type women and rescued Xenobia type women. He may be a barbarian, but left women to their own devices.
I would personally rather see Sonja wearing something like Xena does. It gives her style and some protection.
The chain bikini always reminded me of Leia's slave gear on tattione.
Remember what time this was and who just got hold of the levers of power at comics: the 70s and Boomers. Think Ron Burgundy level stories and pushing sexuality, nudity, and multiple sex partners. Plus Feminism. Especially true in the magazines from Marvel, Warren Publications, and other non-CCA restricted periodicals.
"Chain mail bikinis? Sixty percent of the time, they work every time."
Fair, I’ve never been too fond of it more from a practical historic perspective, and because I like Valeria a lot more and always considered her better.
But the trouble with Sonja is that she really does seem like she belongs to that era of the 70s and 80s.
Absolutely. The character is a thirst trap, and really nothing more. That means if she loses to a man in combat, then she is done. But, take that aspect away from her like Simone did and all you have left is a dishwater male in a girlboss suit.
Yep pretty much, and this is what I dislike about the character. I would like to remove the ‘thirst trap’ part and build something but hey what do I know? I’m just some guy on Substack hahaha.
Regarding the movie, not one large distributor has picked up this movie. It's likely going to languish as did both Solomon Kane (2009) and Judge Dredd (2012) did for the same reasons -- no top-tier distributor touched it. Did they become cult classics? Yes, but only via word of mouth, with little or no advertising outside of what small distribution houses could inject into the markets.
This could be part of anti-girboss blowback, or it could be an ongoing rejection of sword & sorcery fantasy films again by Hollywood. Maybe some of both.
Andre from Midnight's Edge on YouTube has been covering this film's development and distribution problems.
Barry Windsor Smith is the artist who first rendered Red Sonja, wearing a chainmail shirt and red short shorts, in Conan the Barbarian #23 (the comic book). Esteban Maroto was the artist who shifted her into a chain mail bikini, in her second appearance. Then, Frank Thorne took over art duties for her Marvel Premier run that most people remember.
As a Male, with real life experience and training in fighting with edged weapons in armor.
I must defend the chain mail bikini.
Consider that the overwhelming majority of Humans are heterosexual.
Ad in to that number lesbians.
You now have a clearly overwhelming percentage of opponents that would in fact be highly distracted by the sight of a tall, incredibly fit, gorgeous woman, scantily clad in maille lingerie.
That distraction gives immense advantage in combat.
An excellent and thought provoking essay. Unfortunately I think that the way Hollywood is going it will be just another girl boss film where she can do everything better than a man, will not have to suffer or be tested in anyway and not earn her rewards as it will be handed to her on a golden plate. She will therefore be unrelatable and unlikeable to the viewer.
That’s fair, I still wanted to use the opportunity to praise the things that were well done and criticize those that weren’t and to encourage people to think.
This actress doesn’t hold up against Bridgett Nielson, who looks the part of an Amazonian/Germanic sword wife. This girl his frail with small proportions, she looks like a slave girl, not She-Ra. But I’ll still go see that shit and probably love it
"I mean you exist in a universe where men are slaughtering each other in full plate and chainmail, and you choose a bikini?"
The fact that she can walk around that universe in a bikini and not get sexually attacked is a sign that she owns the outfit and what it represents. She knows people are going to expect that she's a helpless damsel, so for her to suddenly come on all bad-ass dressed like that so suddenly on her opponents is pretty gutsy.
The first fictional character I created when I decided to become a professional writer was Jefferson Ball, a canine variant on Sonja in a sci-fi universe who does her one better by wearing a monogrammed bikini. The major difference is that, while Jefferson THINKS that she is heroic, she's actually extremely inept at presenting the image. Basically, I got exposed to Sonja-types so much when I was younger that I decided to play it for laughs, since the girl-boss characterization can be jokey sometimes: https://books2read.com/u/mKrAoB
Fair enough, I still don’t get the appeal beyond the sexual element.
It works both ways. Why do you think Conan almost never wears a shirt?
Except that he almost always does. In Howard's stories he's usually fully clothed in armour.
Ummm. I will confess to not being a Conan fan, in any sense... but surely you see the difference between what goes on the cover and what goes in the book? And thus what we would see in a movie?
Saying, in a book, "He had a shirt on" does not 'cover' the character in nearly the same way as having him have a shirt on in a film.
Yes I do.
Well, obviously, the film screenwriters didn’t notice or care about that.
I know, sadly they had different ideas. Still though the first movie was quite good.
I have a different take on it. I always thought Red Sonja was supposed to a love interest for Conan, one he rejected and left to wander the world. We know what Conan thinks about women. They fall into two camps. The seraglio or at his side swinging a weapon. He has fought alongside Xena type women and rescued Xenobia type women. He may be a barbarian, but left women to their own devices.
I would personally rather see Sonja wearing something like Xena does. It gives her style and some protection.
The chain bikini always reminded me of Leia's slave gear on tattione.
I can get that. Good point about the outfit, I’m not a fan of Xena but her outfit did give a tad more protection.
As to Conan what’s interesting is how he changes in Hour of the Dragon with regards to women seriously recommend you read it. It’s interesting.
As to Red Sonja I suppose that’s a good summarization of it.
Remember what time this was and who just got hold of the levers of power at comics: the 70s and Boomers. Think Ron Burgundy level stories and pushing sexuality, nudity, and multiple sex partners. Plus Feminism. Especially true in the magazines from Marvel, Warren Publications, and other non-CCA restricted periodicals.
"Chain mail bikinis? Sixty percent of the time, they work every time."
Fair, I’ve never been too fond of it more from a practical historic perspective, and because I like Valeria a lot more and always considered her better.
But the trouble with Sonja is that she really does seem like she belongs to that era of the 70s and 80s.
Absolutely. The character is a thirst trap, and really nothing more. That means if she loses to a man in combat, then she is done. But, take that aspect away from her like Simone did and all you have left is a dishwater male in a girlboss suit.
Yep pretty much, and this is what I dislike about the character. I would like to remove the ‘thirst trap’ part and build something but hey what do I know? I’m just some guy on Substack hahaha.
You know more than most of both modern Marvel and modern Hollywood. Keep striving!
Lmao thanks, if only I had half the audience they did.
Regarding the movie, not one large distributor has picked up this movie. It's likely going to languish as did both Solomon Kane (2009) and Judge Dredd (2012) did for the same reasons -- no top-tier distributor touched it. Did they become cult classics? Yes, but only via word of mouth, with little or no advertising outside of what small distribution houses could inject into the markets.
This could be part of anti-girboss blowback, or it could be an ongoing rejection of sword & sorcery fantasy films again by Hollywood. Maybe some of both.
Andre from Midnight's Edge on YouTube has been covering this film's development and distribution problems.
Ahhh ok, interesting that Midnight Edge has been covering it, didn’t know.
As to the cult classic thing well makes sense to me, hopefully it does lead to a categorical rejection of the Girl-Boss idea.
Barry Windsor Smith is the artist who first rendered Red Sonja, wearing a chainmail shirt and red short shorts, in Conan the Barbarian #23 (the comic book). Esteban Maroto was the artist who shifted her into a chain mail bikini, in her second appearance. Then, Frank Thorne took over art duties for her Marvel Premier run that most people remember.
Ahhh ok, thanks for weighing in on this one I appreciate it.
Disparu takes a swing at the movie.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lfT1xQWNiOA
I’ll have a look at his video, I still have some hopes for this movie but even if it’s bad at least I’ll have content to bash lol.
As a Male, with real life experience and training in fighting with edged weapons in armor.
I must defend the chain mail bikini.
Consider that the overwhelming majority of Humans are heterosexual.
Ad in to that number lesbians.
You now have a clearly overwhelming percentage of opponents that would in fact be highly distracted by the sight of a tall, incredibly fit, gorgeous woman, scantily clad in maille lingerie.
That distraction gives immense advantage in combat.
Just saying.
Fair enough lol, I’d certainly be dead and distracted (not necessarily in that order).
Exactly lol.
An excellent and thought provoking essay. Unfortunately I think that the way Hollywood is going it will be just another girl boss film where she can do everything better than a man, will not have to suffer or be tested in anyway and not earn her rewards as it will be handed to her on a golden plate. She will therefore be unrelatable and unlikeable to the viewer.
That’s fair, I still wanted to use the opportunity to praise the things that were well done and criticize those that weren’t and to encourage people to think.
"So what do you walk away from this trailer thinking?"
Blondes > Redheads
Well yeah, lmao Valeria over Red Sonja any day ;)
This actress doesn’t hold up against Bridgett Nielson, who looks the part of an Amazonian/Germanic sword wife. This girl his frail with small proportions, she looks like a slave girl, not She-Ra. But I’ll still go see that shit and probably love it
Agreed, she looks very thin.
For a while there was talk of a Red Sonja movie directed by Robert Rodriguez. THAT I would have watched!