I'm not sure if she fits the comparison, but there's always Helen from Iliad in terms of "trading up." One has to consider how the influence of 'the gods' took over different people in terms of reading the old works. But certainly I'd use that as a classic example of the woman going for the bad boy over a King of a husband, ruining an Empire, and driving multiple areas into war. Beyond simply the Iliad and Odyssey, there are plays such as Helen by Sophocles about her after the story of the Iliad.
Of course, as stated, she's not the 'evil empress' in there.
I’d disagree about Helen of Troy, and say she’s much more of a victim than a monster like Windy is. Dunno about you, but in every version of the myths I’ve read Menelaus wasn’t exactly a stellar husband, and the story between her and Paris is one of love.
If one takes the stories at face value, then yes, you can easily come to those conclusions.
Yet, you have to remember a few things. First, one must consider the social roles/norms of the times when considering or making judgments about Menelaus. Did he violate any of those? Yes or no?
Second, from a Catholic perspective, the gods of the pagans are demons. Analyze the story in that manner. When reading anything about fate, sex, desires, and whisking people away…. you have to put into those categories an analysis. If you believe in human free will not being able to be overcome by God or demons, then you have to replace her being forced to love Paris with her giving into the temptations of her flesh and demons. Of her own fallen nature. Of her putting herself first, and refusing to part with Paris during the whole war. Watching men slaughter each other rather than escape from the city, or open the gates to let her husband in, or any other such action.
When I say that she’s less of a victim and more of a quasi-protagonist driving the story, it’s in such a light. Not in the light that she’s presented in by the pagan authors, but in one of a Catholic making sense of a Pagan world.
I was looking at it at face-value but also from the perspective of Menelaus seeking to elevate his illegitimate children over Helen’s daughter.
And while I do agree that they are demons but if one looks at the stories as pure folkloric-poetry they are beautiful. I cannot bring myself to disdain the art and culture of ancient Greece and Rome, not when they can be utilized to push forward Catholic sentiments and ideas in a manner akin to what Tolkien did.
By analyzing them in the manner I describe, I don’t think that it disdains them at all. I still find them quiet beautiful. I merely think that it gives the human beings in them their full humanity again where before it was stripped away. ‘Blame the gods and fate!’ robs mankind of their agency, and you cannot learn a lesson on how to behave or act. One can love and appreciate the language and story while doing so as well.
In addition, as far as the elevation of the illegitimate children… were they more virtuous? Were they better human beings? Again, remember we’re talking about a pagan society where such was not uncommon. Is such an action worth thousands dying, a whole city wiped off the map?
I’d argue that it’s not, and that Helen is an untrustworthy source for her bias. In the play, Helen, her character is deeply repentant for her actions. It's quiet moving.
Ah okay, and I do agree with the first part, as to the second the illegitimate children later hung Helen and were slain as robbers and crooks, so they weren't much better. They wanted to lay claim to that which was her daughters' and King Orestes' (her son-in-law). It's quite tragic that she is killed in old age not long after the death of Menelaus.
As to the city, I think you're right yes but on the other hand she was an impulsive fool, same as Paris but I don't think that makes them villains or untrustworthy exactly just fools. But I do see your pov now, and can even respect it.
Ah, I wasn't aware of that part of the tale on the children, fair enough!
We should also keep in mind each of these characters were names/tropes to the ancients. They used and re-used them, rebooting them in the way we do Spiderman and Batman today. It's really interesting.
Thanks for the mention!
I'm not sure if she fits the comparison, but there's always Helen from Iliad in terms of "trading up." One has to consider how the influence of 'the gods' took over different people in terms of reading the old works. But certainly I'd use that as a classic example of the woman going for the bad boy over a King of a husband, ruining an Empire, and driving multiple areas into war. Beyond simply the Iliad and Odyssey, there are plays such as Helen by Sophocles about her after the story of the Iliad.
Of course, as stated, she's not the 'evil empress' in there.
I’d disagree about Helen of Troy, and say she’s much more of a victim than a monster like Windy is. Dunno about you, but in every version of the myths I’ve read Menelaus wasn’t exactly a stellar husband, and the story between her and Paris is one of love.
If one takes the stories at face value, then yes, you can easily come to those conclusions.
Yet, you have to remember a few things. First, one must consider the social roles/norms of the times when considering or making judgments about Menelaus. Did he violate any of those? Yes or no?
Second, from a Catholic perspective, the gods of the pagans are demons. Analyze the story in that manner. When reading anything about fate, sex, desires, and whisking people away…. you have to put into those categories an analysis. If you believe in human free will not being able to be overcome by God or demons, then you have to replace her being forced to love Paris with her giving into the temptations of her flesh and demons. Of her own fallen nature. Of her putting herself first, and refusing to part with Paris during the whole war. Watching men slaughter each other rather than escape from the city, or open the gates to let her husband in, or any other such action.
When I say that she’s less of a victim and more of a quasi-protagonist driving the story, it’s in such a light. Not in the light that she’s presented in by the pagan authors, but in one of a Catholic making sense of a Pagan world.
I was looking at it at face-value but also from the perspective of Menelaus seeking to elevate his illegitimate children over Helen’s daughter.
And while I do agree that they are demons but if one looks at the stories as pure folkloric-poetry they are beautiful. I cannot bring myself to disdain the art and culture of ancient Greece and Rome, not when they can be utilized to push forward Catholic sentiments and ideas in a manner akin to what Tolkien did.
I think you misunderstand me.
By analyzing them in the manner I describe, I don’t think that it disdains them at all. I still find them quiet beautiful. I merely think that it gives the human beings in them their full humanity again where before it was stripped away. ‘Blame the gods and fate!’ robs mankind of their agency, and you cannot learn a lesson on how to behave or act. One can love and appreciate the language and story while doing so as well.
In addition, as far as the elevation of the illegitimate children… were they more virtuous? Were they better human beings? Again, remember we’re talking about a pagan society where such was not uncommon. Is such an action worth thousands dying, a whole city wiped off the map?
I’d argue that it’s not, and that Helen is an untrustworthy source for her bias. In the play, Helen, her character is deeply repentant for her actions. It's quiet moving.
Ah okay, and I do agree with the first part, as to the second the illegitimate children later hung Helen and were slain as robbers and crooks, so they weren't much better. They wanted to lay claim to that which was her daughters' and King Orestes' (her son-in-law). It's quite tragic that she is killed in old age not long after the death of Menelaus.
As to the city, I think you're right yes but on the other hand she was an impulsive fool, same as Paris but I don't think that makes them villains or untrustworthy exactly just fools. But I do see your pov now, and can even respect it.
Ah, I wasn't aware of that part of the tale on the children, fair enough!
We should also keep in mind each of these characters were names/tropes to the ancients. They used and re-used them, rebooting them in the way we do Spiderman and Batman today. It's really interesting.