Very interesting. The Critical Drinker on YouTube has been making similar arguments for a while also; about the rise of the ‘Girl Boss’ archetype and the decline of the strong & stoic male hero in cinema.
I hear a lot of people on these channels saying that we will never go back to the traditional character archetypes that worked in narrative fiction for centuries; that they have been buried by radical progressivism, but I disagree.
I think capitalism will win out in the end.
One day soon, someone will make a film that returns to these tried and tested ideas. It will resonate with whole swathes of people as it will reflect their own humanity and revealed preferences. The film will be a monster hit and cause Hollywood/TV to pivot back to characters that closer resemble our base human nature in search of box office receipts.
The same thing happened with romantic fiction due to it’s almost exclusively female reader base. These readers rejected the post-modern & feminised reinterpretation of the male love interest that had been presented to them. Instead, it was the writers who persisted or pivoted back to writing traditionally masculine archetypes that sold their books in high quantities & the entire industry corrected accordingly.
The same thing will happen with cinema/TV in time. These kind of stories have persisted for centuries because they innately describe our own experiences, and the production companies will follow the money eventually. We just gotta vote with our wallets like the romantic novel readers did.
The old stories will make a comeback, I’m certain.
They definitely will, because it is human nature. You can’t change it, we’ve tried for the past 70 years and it’s just completely failed. Inevitably people always revert back to their core being and that’s what’s happening right now despite Hellaweird’s screeching.
Agreed, though I think it’s very much still alive, just pushed to the background. I actually wrote an essay about this myself a while ago. If you look at some of the most popular shows on streaming sites, many involve traditional roles. I, for one, have hope.
Then hope away MaKenna, I really hope you’re right, I just fear my favourite Archetype dying or being sneered at.
I guess I fear people not wanting to write the next Sarah Connor or otherwise when she comes along people judge her a ‘girl boss’ I fear that when the ‘pendulum’ swings the other way, it’ll go too far in a way in terms of literature.
Well, if it is indeed a pendulum (that seems to be humanity’s M.O.), the good news is, it will always swing back.
And I might add, if you’re afraid others will not want to write such things, perhaps that’s a sign you should. “Write the story you would want to read,” right?
'The same thing happened with romantic fiction due to it’s almost exclusively female reader base. These readers rejected the post-modern & feminised reinterpretation of the male love interest that had been presented to them. Instead, it was the writers who persisted or pivoted back to writing traditionally masculine archetypes that sold their books in high quantities & the entire industry corrected accordingly.'
I've recently taken to trying different ways to get new sci fi content from Amazon (Fantastic Fiction is also a good site, particular if you search for authors you know, and then scroll to the bottom of the page, to see recommendations). The Sci FI genre definitely seems to be branching out into a romance crossover. Tall, hulking barbarian aliens with a variety of old coloured skins (and horns) seems to be a developing theme, as is alien abduction.
No, but I have been thinking about reviewing some sci fi and fantasy novels which are probably lesser known. One of the things I find quite frustrating is the lack of resources in this regard. Fantastic Fiction is great, but even though it had around 20,000 authors last time I checked a lot of writers don't have listings.
The problem with the Reddit pages on the subject is that they are usually always the same authors. Probably the best I've read recently is Deepak Malhotra The Peacemaker's Code. John Ringo's Live Free or Die is ideal for libertarian readers- although he's no Robert Heinlein.
Sure, go ahead, if you want you can read my Crown of Blood and let me know what you think in a review. I can also think of some lesser known fantasy and sci-fi stories and writers' who'd love to have their stuff reviewed.
And when typing up a review just a tip; don't use the word 'review' for some reason the algorithm doesn't like it clickbait titles are the way to go.
I agree, The Common Centrist! As far as I am concerned as an Elder of 71, “girl boss” is just as mean as a “boy boss” and sometimes even meaner. The whole attempt to interchange the two genders is not going to ultimately work, as men and women are DIFFERENT. I do not mind a stoic male hero. Many have proven themselves as worthy of trust. I ultimately trust only in God and His Son, but I can clearly see good and solid men and women who are deserving of a good listen and an honest observation of what they do, not what they say. Former Leftist here and I learned the hard way to return to my Conservative roots. Wendy
P.S. I will not spend even $1 in Hollywood anymore. Nothing.
And what a surprise, you've gotten response(s) making fun of men for losing their purpose in a world without women who care about them. Funny. If you're going to tear us down, then honey, have the world you deserve. (I say this saying, at the same time, that womanizers are bullshit, and are also *promoted* by these people, these women.)
Guess what, ladies? Men have feelings. And it's actually possible to hurt them. And then they don't WANT to help you. If you want a punching bag, then you want a pussy.
God, I just hate all the meanness. You say one thing about being chivalrous, and the tides descend and it's all, "Who hurt you? Why are you such a fucking bitch?" I could ask you, the same question.
Essentially, if women are demanding high-paying jobs AND men, they are either being their own men and then emasculating those whom they deign to accept (while, of course, saying "I don't care how much you make!"), or cutting some other guy out of the loop with their family's two fucking big paychecks.
I think it's funny how you, a sweet, nice guy who is traditional, are lambasted, while people who are edgier and write basically the same kind of sentiment are "speaking truth to power." Okay, if you want an asshole, just say it. Of course, you never would!
Not all women, of course. But not *none*, by a long shot. I guess it's just, everyone in pain.
Essentially, if you want the bad guys, you'll get 'em. And then you'll *moCk* the good guys, left without a life and a purpose. How funny that the "Nice" guy is hated, in this society, and the womanizer is celebrated.
Hahaha I think you reacted far more angrily than I did. Just got done talking to my mother about this essay (she loves it), and with my gf (who is even more traditional than I am, and honestly the greatest woman alive in my eyes).
I agree with much of what you say, though thankfully women who rail at men over this stuff are the minority. Thank God for women like Demi, A.C., Kathrine and others.
Yeah, I do want to emphasize it’s not all women, but the ones who do give truth to what I heard from a guy in prison: “Women want you to treat them like a bitch.”
I know, and I appreciate your standing up for me, I’m really moved at your support Matthew (sorry for so presumptuously calling you that). Mon frere, you’re a real stand up guy like my best friends Rabo & Samwise.
Hahaha yeah, Sam or Samwise as everyone calls him (‘cause he’s a lot like Sam Gamgee) is the best.
And non thank you, I was just surprised at the anger that this essay caused and felt glad you, AC and Demi defended me even as I struggled. I’m used to engaging intellectually with people so that attacks on an emotional basis I guess startled me.
I’ll have to get more accustomed to it. But in the meantime thanks my friend.
The trope of one’s girl (present or future tense) being smarter and spunkier than one’s enemies is pretty cool though, ngl. Girls with weapons are never going out of fashion.
Eowyn is my favorite too! And i totally relate to her on so many levels. I even had a thing for Aragorn for awhile, but i like him and Arwen so much, i wasn't gonna 'take' him. I ended up liking Faramir anyway lol.
I’ve always loved the damsel in distress stories. They’re incredibly romantic and endearing, for all the reasons you’ve stated here.
Which brings to mind one of my favorite films growing up, Sleeping Beauty. Not once had I ever thought of Princess Aurora as incapable in any way. My focus was on Prince Phillip and the extraordinary trial he endures to get to her (I mean, he slays a dragon for heaven’s sake). No one made him do that. He wanted to. She was worth all of that and more in his eyes.
I think a lot of people have misinterpreted femininity as “weakness” which is just tragic. We were designed this way for a purpose and should never be ashamed of that. What’s worse (and seemingly contradictory, I might add), is the only “solution” offered to counteract this idea of femininity as “weak” is to make the female character as masculine as possible. Don’t get me wrong, but I feel as though that defeats the entire purpose.
I fully concur, and I must confess to having as a child not like damsel stories but they’ve since grown on me, with it being women in my life who’ve gotten me to appreciate it and also returning to studying Campbell’s material also.
So honestly this is one of my favourite comments here, thanks Makenna for sharing. Ouah, you’ve brought a lot of insight here.
I’m glad, and I respect (truly I do) that fact and you. I’m not very strong to be honest, but I’d like to be.
I may write about the strength to endure and the strength to do things, but these things I say it’s as much to teach me, and mould myself into a better man to be worthier of my lady-love.
So I’m glad you like these essays and the brutal honesty in them. I need to be, to teach myself to be better than I was yesterday, and to be worthier of my loved ones.
I think you’ll find that you’re stronger than you believe. Besides, those that care about you the most will love you, flaws and all, regardless. That’s what love is.
I understand what you mean, though. I like to test myself as well. My first novel put my main character through hell. But I wanted to see if I could test my own values through her experiences. The whole experience was incredibly challenging, and yet strangely therapeutic. It helped me grieve my past, and become more comfortable with myself (though I still have a long way to go).
Ever seen the movie "The Quiet Man" (John Wayne, Maureen O'Hara). He was a retired boxer who had killed a man in the ring. She was a fiery Irish woman who wanted a man who would be strong and tough. The gentle approach didn't work with her. He finally had to knock her about a bit (after they were married) to win her respect. That's as bad as these girl-boss types. My women in my works of fiction are like me -- PEOPLE, INDIVIDUALS, and not subject to the constraints of a gender-assigned role. It's how I grew up and how I live. I think Kathrine needs to do some rethinking. She seems a bit off in other ways, too. Not to be harsh, but there it is, as the British say.
Ahh okay, well I’m privately horrified by the idea of ever hitting a woman. I think I’d rather be shot than ever hit one (I don’t say that lightly) it seems horrific. I don’t know if I’ll check that movie out (is it good)?
As to the women in your fiction, I’ve seen them. They’re people, and I do like them. You write complex women who can’t be pigeonholed into categories that easily. I’d compare them to the Captain from Treasure Planet. At times rescued, at other times the principal thinker and rescuer.
I think I'm seeing a modern version of the damsel in distress in Conan: the damsel first frees him to pursue the quest that will allow him to prove himself to her. Also, it is interesting that you say the woman sets the trials or tests of the man. Do you mean that she consciously sets the trials/tests (I'm not sure I'm seeing this), or that her actions lead to the trials/tests being set?
There are two positive versions of the warrior woman that I recognize so far: one is the woman who fights and then puts down her arms and marries (Eowyn in LOTR) and the other is woman who fights and either dies or lives for her goddess (Camilla in the Aeneid) or God (Joan of Arc) or Hild (Hildegyth) in The Last Kingdom, the nun who becomes a warrior, then an abbess. Whether marrying or serving a divinity, the woman never lives for herself. As indeed, neither does the man who fights to prove his worth.
It sounds like, with Red Sonja, the goal is always simply to fight for the sake of fighting? I haven't gotten to reading the Red Sonja stories yet. I'm doing Belit first -- one chapter into Queen of the Black Coast so far.
The initial feminist objection to the "damsel in distress" that I remember from the 70's is that it supposedly shows women as weak and at the mercy of men. Since, of course, we're using the Marxist frame of "men against women," it is bad and dangerous for women to EVER depend on men, who are inherently oppressors. The idea was that a woman didn't "need" a man to "save her," and totally ignored the idea of him proving himself to her.
I think her actions set up the tests not that she deliberately sets them, whoops didn’t mean to make that implication.
Also love that female warrior archetype that you commented on in the second paragraph. Exactly the sort I love to write about.
And don’t bother reading Red Sonja, there’s no stories worth reading in my experience. Belit is quite good, and you’re better off reading Red Nails than RS.
As to the feminist objection that’s exactly it, I see no reason for man to be vs women, as we need each other.
There are Damsel in Distress movies out there- they're just exclusively rom coms, and only ever consider the woman's point of view. '27 Dresses' would be a prime example. The last time a great movie really considered the man's feelings was 'Sleepless in Seattle' and it was 1993, although 'Love Actually' came close in 2003.
It’s an interesting distinction, don’t you think? Women get exactly what they want out of fiction, but when it comes to men we can’t have anything too ‘regressive’ can we?
That’s exactly it, and it’s honestly getting wearisome. As we have only escapism at this point and some of them are trying to ‘take it away from us’ which is pretty irritating.
I also don’t make the rules about archetypes, they’re facts and derived from thousands of years, yet the moment I post about them, I’ve a slew of ‘new age writers’ complaining and raging at me. It is perplexing that some wish to be taken seriously yet won’t study up on story-telling.
Critical Drinker has talked at length about how diverse characters written for modern audiences tend to be unsympathetic for the simple reason that characters whose only flaw is confidence or the fact that others don’t recognise their awesomeness, tend to unlikeable. People like to root for people who face challenges and overcome them- it’s that simple.
There are a number of versions of the Hero’s Journey online, but this one is particularly useful. I’ve also found some of the content of the South Park creators giving advice to writers useful- particular the ‘And Then’ versus ‘But… Therefore’.
There was also one Critical Drinker clip where he opined on the brilliance of the foreshadowing in the original ‘Tremors’ movie. I managed to find it- it’s only 8 minutes. The particular move he mentions was sheer genius- so innocuous, but so relevant later.
Ah d’acc, and yeah it seems that the ‘fake flaws’ of to-day are ridiculous and stand as a total contrast to good writing.
Certainly not something a true writer should make the mistake of doing.
What I find strange is that Drinker while I don’t watch him too often peeves off some people who say he’s ‘never saying anything positive’ or ‘reviewing things he likes’ when most of the time he does exactly those things. He’s a good movie critic, strangely I like him and Cinema Snob because they both tackle the same topic from different angles. Drinker though is at times the deeper thinker and is more impatient with woke nonsense.
I’ll take a look at this clip, on condition you see if this fantasy book might interest you (if not it’s fine).
There’s a reason classics like old fairy tales, myths, and legends have stood the test of time. They explore our very nature, as you said. Truth will win out in the end.
Somewhere in one of her memoirs, Lacey Sturm said she grew up with media that always had women rescuing men. She now wishes she hadn't, because it trained her to tolerate weak men as potential mates. I'm probably paraphrasing heavily here
Interesting, I hadn’t thought of that being a consequence, hmm the only shame for men is staying weak. So we must become stronger and worthier of our women in my mind.
You’ll have to look that text up and send it to me. I’d be very curious to see what she wrote.
I keep giving my copy away and needing new ones! If you get a chance to find it before I do, I believe it's in her book, The Mystery. But it might be in The Return.
Oh. My. Goodness. I can't not tell you how much i loved to read this. I have been saying this for YEARS! Especially when it comes to the Disney Princesses. People are always saying how the Disney Princesses waited around for a man to save them etc. And they were weak and pathetic etc. Its interesting tho when you contrast 'todays' women (read the last 40 years or so) to the voice actors of the original Disney Princesses. The original voices for Belle and Cinderella especially, understood their characters. Unlike the modern actresses who are all about 'female warriors'. Now don't get me wrong, i totally love the idea of a warrior princess so to speak, but only if its done right. I could go on and on about this issue, but let me just say that i am so hapoy to hear this from someone else, and you should look up the arguments for and agaisnt Disney Princesses. Especially the song, 'In Defense of Disney Princesses'
I will check out the song and have a response/analysis written about it in a few weeks if you want, since you recommended it milady, and chuckle as you sound like my brother, he too said ‘I have been saying this for YEARS!’ so that I truly appreciate your comment.
Ohhh hahahaha, it’s been too long since I saw this movie, definitely gonna re-watch and give it a whirl. Thanks for this, lovely comment and reminder of a very important song X)
I think girlbosses can be quite appealing but it depends on the quality of the writing and how they are presented. Since let's face it action and adventure is almost entirely a genre which men like, any female action lead needs to be likable (so a certain level of kawaii factor is good) and she should be designed as a male sexual fantasy.
Great article! Your passionate defence of the Damsel-in-Distress archetype is thought-provoking and well-argued. You weave together myth, literature, and modern media, highlighting how these stories reflect profound human truths and cultural traditions. Your perspective on the roles and dynamics of love, heroism, and gender in storytelling is compelling and refreshing.
Thanks, I appreciate your kind words, my hope soon is to write of the importance and power of warrior-women and a need for more traditional warrior-women like bushi-onna, shield-maidens and Eowyn, Valeria and Fiona and such.
I’m glad you like the references to literature, myth and cinema, all three are invaluable and beautiful.
Modern women, seeking the Fuller life, as Kipling put it, wondered why they couldn’t be the active protagonists of their stories, rather passive damsels to be rescued and won
I believe evolutionary biology answers that question. Many folk/fairy tales are about a poor young man, even a boy, who sets out to win his fortune, and win his bride, possibly a princess. He must travel far, overcome setbacks, learn lessons, display cunning and courage, and sometimes defeat giants, witches, or dragons. The damsel in these stories doesn’t need to seek a prize — she IS the prize
Very interesting. The Critical Drinker on YouTube has been making similar arguments for a while also; about the rise of the ‘Girl Boss’ archetype and the decline of the strong & stoic male hero in cinema.
I hear a lot of people on these channels saying that we will never go back to the traditional character archetypes that worked in narrative fiction for centuries; that they have been buried by radical progressivism, but I disagree.
I think capitalism will win out in the end.
One day soon, someone will make a film that returns to these tried and tested ideas. It will resonate with whole swathes of people as it will reflect their own humanity and revealed preferences. The film will be a monster hit and cause Hollywood/TV to pivot back to characters that closer resemble our base human nature in search of box office receipts.
The same thing happened with romantic fiction due to it’s almost exclusively female reader base. These readers rejected the post-modern & feminised reinterpretation of the male love interest that had been presented to them. Instead, it was the writers who persisted or pivoted back to writing traditionally masculine archetypes that sold their books in high quantities & the entire industry corrected accordingly.
The same thing will happen with cinema/TV in time. These kind of stories have persisted for centuries because they innately describe our own experiences, and the production companies will follow the money eventually. We just gotta vote with our wallets like the romantic novel readers did.
The old stories will make a comeback, I’m certain.
They definitely will, because it is human nature. You can’t change it, we’ve tried for the past 70 years and it’s just completely failed. Inevitably people always revert back to their core being and that’s what’s happening right now despite Hellaweird’s screeching.
Agreed, though I think it’s very much still alive, just pushed to the background. I actually wrote an essay about this myself a while ago. If you look at some of the most popular shows on streaming sites, many involve traditional roles. I, for one, have hope.
Then hope away MaKenna, I really hope you’re right, I just fear my favourite Archetype dying or being sneered at.
I guess I fear people not wanting to write the next Sarah Connor or otherwise when she comes along people judge her a ‘girl boss’ I fear that when the ‘pendulum’ swings the other way, it’ll go too far in a way in terms of literature.
Well, if it is indeed a pendulum (that seems to be humanity’s M.O.), the good news is, it will always swing back.
And I might add, if you’re afraid others will not want to write such things, perhaps that’s a sign you should. “Write the story you would want to read,” right?
I suppose, though I’m not sure I want it to swing back towards massive censureship or boss-girls as we’ve gone pretty far to one side.
Nor would I, but it may be out of our hands.
Ouais you’re right
'The same thing happened with romantic fiction due to it’s almost exclusively female reader base. These readers rejected the post-modern & feminised reinterpretation of the male love interest that had been presented to them. Instead, it was the writers who persisted or pivoted back to writing traditionally masculine archetypes that sold their books in high quantities & the entire industry corrected accordingly.'
I've recently taken to trying different ways to get new sci fi content from Amazon (Fantastic Fiction is also a good site, particular if you search for authors you know, and then scroll to the bottom of the page, to see recommendations). The Sci FI genre definitely seems to be branching out into a romance crossover. Tall, hulking barbarian aliens with a variety of old coloured skins (and horns) seems to be a developing theme, as is alien abduction.
Ohhh I see, I’ll have to look into that stuff. I’ve one project like it; an African Gone With The Wind novel titled Prince of Flames.
But kudos to you for examining that stuff and studying it, any chance you have essays on the topic? I’d love to read more!
No, but I have been thinking about reviewing some sci fi and fantasy novels which are probably lesser known. One of the things I find quite frustrating is the lack of resources in this regard. Fantastic Fiction is great, but even though it had around 20,000 authors last time I checked a lot of writers don't have listings.
The problem with the Reddit pages on the subject is that they are usually always the same authors. Probably the best I've read recently is Deepak Malhotra The Peacemaker's Code. John Ringo's Live Free or Die is ideal for libertarian readers- although he's no Robert Heinlein.
Sure, go ahead, if you want you can read my Crown of Blood and let me know what you think in a review. I can also think of some lesser known fantasy and sci-fi stories and writers' who'd love to have their stuff reviewed.
And when typing up a review just a tip; don't use the word 'review' for some reason the algorithm doesn't like it clickbait titles are the way to go.
I agree, The Common Centrist! As far as I am concerned as an Elder of 71, “girl boss” is just as mean as a “boy boss” and sometimes even meaner. The whole attempt to interchange the two genders is not going to ultimately work, as men and women are DIFFERENT. I do not mind a stoic male hero. Many have proven themselves as worthy of trust. I ultimately trust only in God and His Son, but I can clearly see good and solid men and women who are deserving of a good listen and an honest observation of what they do, not what they say. Former Leftist here and I learned the hard way to return to my Conservative roots. Wendy
P.S. I will not spend even $1 in Hollywood anymore. Nothing.
And what a surprise, you've gotten response(s) making fun of men for losing their purpose in a world without women who care about them. Funny. If you're going to tear us down, then honey, have the world you deserve. (I say this saying, at the same time, that womanizers are bullshit, and are also *promoted* by these people, these women.)
Guess what, ladies? Men have feelings. And it's actually possible to hurt them. And then they don't WANT to help you. If you want a punching bag, then you want a pussy.
God, I just hate all the meanness. You say one thing about being chivalrous, and the tides descend and it's all, "Who hurt you? Why are you such a fucking bitch?" I could ask you, the same question.
Essentially, if women are demanding high-paying jobs AND men, they are either being their own men and then emasculating those whom they deign to accept (while, of course, saying "I don't care how much you make!"), or cutting some other guy out of the loop with their family's two fucking big paychecks.
I think it's funny how you, a sweet, nice guy who is traditional, are lambasted, while people who are edgier and write basically the same kind of sentiment are "speaking truth to power." Okay, if you want an asshole, just say it. Of course, you never would!
Not all women, of course. But not *none*, by a long shot. I guess it's just, everyone in pain.
Essentially, if you want the bad guys, you'll get 'em. And then you'll *moCk* the good guys, left without a life and a purpose. How funny that the "Nice" guy is hated, in this society, and the womanizer is celebrated.
Hahaha I think you reacted far more angrily than I did. Just got done talking to my mother about this essay (she loves it), and with my gf (who is even more traditional than I am, and honestly the greatest woman alive in my eyes).
I agree with much of what you say, though thankfully women who rail at men over this stuff are the minority. Thank God for women like Demi, A.C., Kathrine and others.
Yeah, I do want to emphasize it’s not all women, but the ones who do give truth to what I heard from a guy in prison: “Women want you to treat them like a bitch.”
Edit: Guess those ones get guys like him.
I know, and I appreciate your standing up for me, I’m really moved at your support Matthew (sorry for so presumptuously calling you that). Mon frere, you’re a real stand up guy like my best friends Rabo & Samwise.
Thank you, we should all have a friend like Samwise! Haha, I know it’s not the same.
Hahaha yeah, Sam or Samwise as everyone calls him (‘cause he’s a lot like Sam Gamgee) is the best.
And non thank you, I was just surprised at the anger that this essay caused and felt glad you, AC and Demi defended me even as I struggled. I’m used to engaging intellectually with people so that attacks on an emotional basis I guess startled me.
I’ll have to get more accustomed to it. But in the meantime thanks my friend.
The trope of one’s girl (present or future tense) being smarter and spunkier than one’s enemies is pretty cool though, ngl. Girls with weapons are never going out of fashion.
Nor should they, I plan to write about them. I love female characters like that.
My favourite LOTR character is Eowyn so definitely gonna agree with you good sir X)
Eowyn is my favorite too! And i totally relate to her on so many levels. I even had a thing for Aragorn for awhile, but i like him and Arwen so much, i wasn't gonna 'take' him. I ended up liking Faramir anyway lol.
Lol I get that
I’ve always loved the damsel in distress stories. They’re incredibly romantic and endearing, for all the reasons you’ve stated here.
Which brings to mind one of my favorite films growing up, Sleeping Beauty. Not once had I ever thought of Princess Aurora as incapable in any way. My focus was on Prince Phillip and the extraordinary trial he endures to get to her (I mean, he slays a dragon for heaven’s sake). No one made him do that. He wanted to. She was worth all of that and more in his eyes.
I think a lot of people have misinterpreted femininity as “weakness” which is just tragic. We were designed this way for a purpose and should never be ashamed of that. What’s worse (and seemingly contradictory, I might add), is the only “solution” offered to counteract this idea of femininity as “weak” is to make the female character as masculine as possible. Don’t get me wrong, but I feel as though that defeats the entire purpose.
I fully concur, and I must confess to having as a child not like damsel stories but they’ve since grown on me, with it being women in my life who’ve gotten me to appreciate it and also returning to studying Campbell’s material also.
So honestly this is one of my favourite comments here, thanks Makenna for sharing. Ouah, you’ve brought a lot of insight here.
Great article, really. You and Kathrine both.
Hers’ was better in my opinion hahaha. I’m hoping my next one won’t be quite so erm controversial.
Nothing wrong with being controversial if it’s honest. I’d take brutal honesty over a nice lie any day.
I’m glad, and I respect (truly I do) that fact and you. I’m not very strong to be honest, but I’d like to be.
I may write about the strength to endure and the strength to do things, but these things I say it’s as much to teach me, and mould myself into a better man to be worthier of my lady-love.
So I’m glad you like these essays and the brutal honesty in them. I need to be, to teach myself to be better than I was yesterday, and to be worthier of my loved ones.
Thoughts?
I think you’ll find that you’re stronger than you believe. Besides, those that care about you the most will love you, flaws and all, regardless. That’s what love is.
I understand what you mean, though. I like to test myself as well. My first novel put my main character through hell. But I wanted to see if I could test my own values through her experiences. The whole experience was incredibly challenging, and yet strangely therapeutic. It helped me grieve my past, and become more comfortable with myself (though I still have a long way to go).
As a self-identifying damsel, I support this message.
Lol thanks, I do hope there’s been a ‘Prince Charming’ you did right by you, madame I really do appreciate your kind words.
Ever seen the movie "The Quiet Man" (John Wayne, Maureen O'Hara). He was a retired boxer who had killed a man in the ring. She was a fiery Irish woman who wanted a man who would be strong and tough. The gentle approach didn't work with her. He finally had to knock her about a bit (after they were married) to win her respect. That's as bad as these girl-boss types. My women in my works of fiction are like me -- PEOPLE, INDIVIDUALS, and not subject to the constraints of a gender-assigned role. It's how I grew up and how I live. I think Kathrine needs to do some rethinking. She seems a bit off in other ways, too. Not to be harsh, but there it is, as the British say.
Ahh okay, well I’m privately horrified by the idea of ever hitting a woman. I think I’d rather be shot than ever hit one (I don’t say that lightly) it seems horrific. I don’t know if I’ll check that movie out (is it good)?
As to the women in your fiction, I’ve seen them. They’re people, and I do like them. You write complex women who can’t be pigeonholed into categories that easily. I’d compare them to the Captain from Treasure Planet. At times rescued, at other times the principal thinker and rescuer.
So many thoughts here! Another great article.
I think I'm seeing a modern version of the damsel in distress in Conan: the damsel first frees him to pursue the quest that will allow him to prove himself to her. Also, it is interesting that you say the woman sets the trials or tests of the man. Do you mean that she consciously sets the trials/tests (I'm not sure I'm seeing this), or that her actions lead to the trials/tests being set?
There are two positive versions of the warrior woman that I recognize so far: one is the woman who fights and then puts down her arms and marries (Eowyn in LOTR) and the other is woman who fights and either dies or lives for her goddess (Camilla in the Aeneid) or God (Joan of Arc) or Hild (Hildegyth) in The Last Kingdom, the nun who becomes a warrior, then an abbess. Whether marrying or serving a divinity, the woman never lives for herself. As indeed, neither does the man who fights to prove his worth.
It sounds like, with Red Sonja, the goal is always simply to fight for the sake of fighting? I haven't gotten to reading the Red Sonja stories yet. I'm doing Belit first -- one chapter into Queen of the Black Coast so far.
The initial feminist objection to the "damsel in distress" that I remember from the 70's is that it supposedly shows women as weak and at the mercy of men. Since, of course, we're using the Marxist frame of "men against women," it is bad and dangerous for women to EVER depend on men, who are inherently oppressors. The idea was that a woman didn't "need" a man to "save her," and totally ignored the idea of him proving himself to her.
I think her actions set up the tests not that she deliberately sets them, whoops didn’t mean to make that implication.
Also love that female warrior archetype that you commented on in the second paragraph. Exactly the sort I love to write about.
And don’t bother reading Red Sonja, there’s no stories worth reading in my experience. Belit is quite good, and you’re better off reading Red Nails than RS.
As to the feminist objection that’s exactly it, I see no reason for man to be vs women, as we need each other.
There are Damsel in Distress movies out there- they're just exclusively rom coms, and only ever consider the woman's point of view. '27 Dresses' would be a prime example. The last time a great movie really considered the man's feelings was 'Sleepless in Seattle' and it was 1993, although 'Love Actually' came close in 2003.
Awesome point, I stand massively and happily corrected on that point thanks for mentioning Rom-Coms I completely forgot about those.
It’s an interesting distinction, don’t you think? Women get exactly what they want out of fiction, but when it comes to men we can’t have anything too ‘regressive’ can we?
That’s exactly it, and it’s honestly getting wearisome. As we have only escapism at this point and some of them are trying to ‘take it away from us’ which is pretty irritating.
I also don’t make the rules about archetypes, they’re facts and derived from thousands of years, yet the moment I post about them, I’ve a slew of ‘new age writers’ complaining and raging at me. It is perplexing that some wish to be taken seriously yet won’t study up on story-telling.
Critical Drinker has talked at length about how diverse characters written for modern audiences tend to be unsympathetic for the simple reason that characters whose only flaw is confidence or the fact that others don’t recognise their awesomeness, tend to unlikeable. People like to root for people who face challenges and overcome them- it’s that simple.
There are a number of versions of the Hero’s Journey online, but this one is particularly useful. I’ve also found some of the content of the South Park creators giving advice to writers useful- particular the ‘And Then’ versus ‘But… Therefore’.
There was also one Critical Drinker clip where he opined on the brilliance of the foreshadowing in the original ‘Tremors’ movie. I managed to find it- it’s only 8 minutes. The particular move he mentions was sheer genius- so innocuous, but so relevant later.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp1HSseAtcA
Ah d’acc, and yeah it seems that the ‘fake flaws’ of to-day are ridiculous and stand as a total contrast to good writing.
Certainly not something a true writer should make the mistake of doing.
What I find strange is that Drinker while I don’t watch him too often peeves off some people who say he’s ‘never saying anything positive’ or ‘reviewing things he likes’ when most of the time he does exactly those things. He’s a good movie critic, strangely I like him and Cinema Snob because they both tackle the same topic from different angles. Drinker though is at times the deeper thinker and is more impatient with woke nonsense.
I’ll take a look at this clip, on condition you see if this fantasy book might interest you (if not it’s fine).
https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/9780986863967
I just bought it for my Kindle:)
There’s a reason classics like old fairy tales, myths, and legends have stood the test of time. They explore our very nature, as you said. Truth will win out in the end.
Very true, and Truth always wins, just as the old tales, myths and legends do. Very well said Elliot Kessler!
Somewhere in one of her memoirs, Lacey Sturm said she grew up with media that always had women rescuing men. She now wishes she hadn't, because it trained her to tolerate weak men as potential mates. I'm probably paraphrasing heavily here
Interesting, I hadn’t thought of that being a consequence, hmm the only shame for men is staying weak. So we must become stronger and worthier of our women in my mind.
You’ll have to look that text up and send it to me. I’d be very curious to see what she wrote.
I keep giving my copy away and needing new ones! If you get a chance to find it before I do, I believe it's in her book, The Mystery. But it might be in The Return.
Oh d’acc I’ll look it up, merci madame.
Oh. My. Goodness. I can't not tell you how much i loved to read this. I have been saying this for YEARS! Especially when it comes to the Disney Princesses. People are always saying how the Disney Princesses waited around for a man to save them etc. And they were weak and pathetic etc. Its interesting tho when you contrast 'todays' women (read the last 40 years or so) to the voice actors of the original Disney Princesses. The original voices for Belle and Cinderella especially, understood their characters. Unlike the modern actresses who are all about 'female warriors'. Now don't get me wrong, i totally love the idea of a warrior princess so to speak, but only if its done right. I could go on and on about this issue, but let me just say that i am so hapoy to hear this from someone else, and you should look up the arguments for and agaisnt Disney Princesses. Especially the song, 'In Defense of Disney Princesses'
I will check out the song and have a response/analysis written about it in a few weeks if you want, since you recommended it milady, and chuckle as you sound like my brother, he too said ‘I have been saying this for YEARS!’ so that I truly appreciate your comment.
Haha that would be awesome thanks! Yeah, its nice to know theres others out there that share my opinion. Your brother sounds fun. 😂
He’s pretty cool, he does all of the Disney essays/analysis on this substack.
Interesting, I'm going to be checking out more of your guy's stuff soon. 😊
Yay!
oo-de-lolly!
Quoi? Pardon? Not sure I follow lol
It's the Roger Miller song from the Disney Robin Hood movie. I saw it as a kid. https://youtu.be/s3OUaBcA-Fo?feature=shared
Ohhh hahahaha, it’s been too long since I saw this movie, definitely gonna re-watch and give it a whirl. Thanks for this, lovely comment and reminder of a very important song X)
I think girlbosses can be quite appealing but it depends on the quality of the writing and how they are presented. Since let's face it action and adventure is almost entirely a genre which men like, any female action lead needs to be likable (so a certain level of kawaii factor is good) and she should be designed as a male sexual fantasy.
To be quite frank, I consider the girl-boss = mary-sue and the Shield-Maiden archetype (warrior-woman) to be what you just described.
Great article! Your passionate defence of the Damsel-in-Distress archetype is thought-provoking and well-argued. You weave together myth, literature, and modern media, highlighting how these stories reflect profound human truths and cultural traditions. Your perspective on the roles and dynamics of love, heroism, and gender in storytelling is compelling and refreshing.
Thanks, I appreciate your kind words, my hope soon is to write of the importance and power of warrior-women and a need for more traditional warrior-women like bushi-onna, shield-maidens and Eowyn, Valeria and Fiona and such.
I’m glad you like the references to literature, myth and cinema, all three are invaluable and beautiful.
Modern women, seeking the Fuller life, as Kipling put it, wondered why they couldn’t be the active protagonists of their stories, rather passive damsels to be rescued and won
I believe evolutionary biology answers that question. Many folk/fairy tales are about a poor young man, even a boy, who sets out to win his fortune, and win his bride, possibly a princess. He must travel far, overcome setbacks, learn lessons, display cunning and courage, and sometimes defeat giants, witches, or dragons. The damsel in these stories doesn’t need to seek a prize — she IS the prize
Exactly!
Another banger. Tangentially, I blame that film for the rise of furries haha
Thanks, and it might be responsible, I must admit to not understanding furries. They’re weird.