Thanks so much for writing this tirade! I beat this drum, too, long and hard. Maybe I should even write my own post on it. Modern editors and critique groups want to shave every genre down into a thriller. Thrillers are, by necessity, light on description and exposition. They're all about keeping the action moving, and honestly, when you're in a big modern city, you don't need truckloads of description or exposition anyway, except maybe about the villain's hideout. I've watched countless young fantasy authors unwittingly whittle down their lush prose into stripped-down thrillers. It's the antithesis of fantasy. Often I wonder if these authors ever questioned the narrative or ... you know ... ever tried to defend their art. I also blame the craze about Deep POV. It's a tool, not the whole book, people! .... Yeah I should just write a whole blogpost about it.
Fullly concur, they whittle and tear down their own worlds until they aren't even worlds anymore forgetting what Tolkien did and the example he and Howard set.
A lot of that is probably about the movie/video clip perspective that's really messing with writing styles, as if the written story is a poor replacement for things flashing across your screen.
Agreed on all points. For me it’s the dogmatic adherence to Deep POV that I see as a mistake. It may be “deep” for a given character but is in fact very shallow for the greater narrative.
I call it the RPG Video Game Camera, since it’s always locked on the protagonist, even if other views would actually be better to view the wider story.
Maybe “mistake” is too strong a word—that narrative voice has many strengths. But more I see it writers take that narrative voice (and subsequent distance) as the default, or as a necessity. And fantasy especially can do so much more when an author discards that.
And I feel overjoyed to hear that, honestly I’m always nervous when releasing a rant, as I feel like I’m slighting or otherwise venting to my beloved readers, Einherjar & Einherjar-Centurions. You all deserve the best. Nothing less than that, and rants aren’t something I like to go on too much (despite the evidence above lol).
Fascinating read. I agree that “less is more” is generally poor advice. It’s like “show don’t tell,” in that there’s a kernel of very good advice within the phrase, but the phrase has been reduced down to a vague nothingness that is repeated mindlessly by the writerly world to the point that the words are useless, and taking them at face value will send an author down the path to homogenous, droll writing.
However, being able to use sparse prose is, in my view, an excellent tool. Sometimes what you don’t say is more powerful than what you do, like horror movies NOT showing the monster. Stories that are rich in meaning will have lots left unsaid, things left in subtext, and morals left implicit.
Agreed, moi je prefere the maximalist approach, and do agree about what the writing world has been reduced to.
However, what you say about horror is not something I fully agree with, what I don't see bores me. I need to see the monster else I grow tired and shut the movie off (there are exceptions).
But there are times when stuff is best left in the subtext I do agree, and I think this can be done even with maximalism. That said, some storeis like action and mystery need minimalism.
The monster: I'm with you there (not unconditionally), the brooding menace of Jaws for instance is far more effective than a full frontal assault on the senses would have been. In books it's all about the fine balance between the stated and the implied.
This is fantastic and inspiring! Honestly I’ve been afraid of info-dumping myself. With The Sword of Myn’, I separated out a huge world-building profile because I wasn’t sure how to keep the reader’s attention, as well as include all the flora/fauna/architecture/religion and everything else within the story itself (and that was just one of many worlds to be included in the novel). I might have to rethink this.
Also, thanks to Redwall especially, I love inserting songs into my stories! I usually include at least one. This makes me want to go even more in-depth with world-building (and use even more songs, too).
I get the fear, I suffer from it much of the time. But you gotta let go of it, and just trust in your world to draw people in. If you shave off its arms how can people feel its fingers (hope you don’t mind the strange metaphor)?
As to Redwall, ouais the songs are part of the joy, it’s why I always insert 2-5 in my stories, dunno if they’re any good but gotta. That reminds me, Bro Gemstone Vol 2 needs more of them!
Hmm, then I gotta make some more Redwall content. Maybe I’ll download the kindle (I’ve the paperback copy) and start writing up a ‘Redwall Commentaries’ to go with the others I’m doing write now (I love this pun).
Hehehe, sounds awesome and congrats mon ami, may the Seigneur bless your boy, I hope he grows up knowing his Dad is a bestseller, and gifted much beauty and culture to this world so that he might stand that much taller when the time comes.
Congratulations! That’s going to be such a special time! I don’t know if you’ve seen them, but we grew up watching the animated episodes of the original Redwall book as well. That might be something fun to share when he’s a bit older!
I can't tell you how encouraging this is. The often good-natured advice of "pare it down" has lead me to believe I'm a pedantic blabbermouth who writes too much, but even just the prospect that maybe I don't writer too much is so uplifting. It makes me think that maybe I write tons of details and scenes because there is so much to know about this world and these characters, and that is a good thing, a GRAND thing. Sure, I'm not perfect and still need polish, but by gum, if I want to write details and people and magic and more, I should! Thanks for the inspiration, my friend.
You're bienvenue mon ami, you should never be forced to 'pare it down' to shave away the beauty, the glory, the greatness of the world that you pored your blood, sweat and tears into. The world that you spent so much time upon, time that could have been spent elsewhere and upon other things so that what you have built is a gift. It must be shared! It must be shared! So do so, mon ami and I really am glad to have encouraged and uplifted you, I only hope you might uplift others with the beauty of your own prose, your own works of beauty!
"I see writers all the time, describing the ‘Deep Lore of Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion’ as boring over on twitter. A part of me wants to shake them and scream at them (instead I just unfollow)"
Ah, this is maturity.
It's a neat observation about the "too modern" feel of some books; this is something that puts me off most ostensibly "historical" or "period" novels and almost all the movies and TV: there is a very clear sense that these are modern people in somewhat more exciting clothes. In other words, the story is presented as epic fantasy when it's actually a pseudo-superhero story, for instance, or high school shenanigans disguised as Regency novels and so on.
Triste but true, as to maturity being unfollowing them, I dunno. I just don’t have the energy or time to argue with them anymore, I gotta really build up this platform and work on my stories. I’ve several collaborative projects I’m working on for this week and next month, and job-training. Don’t have time for them.
Used to be I tried changing their minds, now I don’t think I have the power to or the will to. Let another, more charismatic do it.
I think that’s the difference between the messianic complex and the desire to have a conversation about something that really matters. If you find someone smart who is willing to discuss and argue ideas it’s great but it seldom happens, why run after someone dogmatic who is just spouting stuff?
I do agree. These limitations often deprive the readers of the atmosphere the stories are trying to establish. Instead, we're told to focus on the characters to the point where were practically writing soap operas. Restricting your prose to character arcs becomes dreary after a while.
Exactement, it is because they want us writing cheap GoT knockoffs in some ways, and the indie scene outside substackistan doesn’t help as too many writers follow the lead of the mainstream without question oddly enough.
Very much agree! My favorite fantasy literature all have a large history / myth background - it’s essential for building the secondary world, which is the basis of “escapism “ to me. The achievements / tragedies of the story are more meaningful at the end if I understand where the story actually begins (if that makes sense).
I do understand, and it is the same way for me, it is why I write the Brotherhood of the Gemstone and Olympnomachi the way I do. I need them to be huge, to have a lengthy history and mythical cycle behind them.
Without the huge body of myths, and history and anthropology could Hour of the Dragon & Lord of the Rings even be what they are?
Well said. I remember pitching my book to agents who, without ever reading a word of it, would tell me it sounded great but that I still needed to cut 50-60k words from the manuscript before they'd even consider it. Wondering if maybe they were right, I sent it to an editor and he told me at most he would maybe cut 5k words—everything else in the book was necessary for the story. The cynic in me thinks part of the "less is more" pressure comes down to shaping books to fit publishers' arbitrary word counts. It's economics masquerading as aesthetics.
On another subject, could someone explain the "Iron-Ager" thing to me?
That’s awful! Sounds like they wanted to take a hatchet job to the book, hope you didn’t listen to them yes you need an editor but one who will listen to you and your vision not dictate you theirs!
But ouais it is possibly as you said to fit with publishers’ arbitrary vision of things.
Iron-Age is a right-wing art movement begun on yt by Razorfist, it spread to twitter among his fans. I joined in on some online meetings and discussions, but while I liked a lot of early discussion stuff and what not I’ve begun to observe more and more dishonest fellows slipping in.
The movement was a counter-cultural Anglosphere one about taking back the culture so to speak from left-wing corporations and from hollywood and publishers. An attempt to get us making movies and books like in the 60s for movies (or up to the 80s) and for books to go back to the 19th or early 20th century. Sounded noble. But before you knew it, you had guys slipping in wanting to just make a buck and then doing nothing after that and not really supporting the rest.
Trouble also was that a number of people slipped in saying ‘I’m with the Iron-Age’ when they are clearly not conservative, but were accepted by the rest. And this has led to confusion and stuff, there’s also some writing very political, very subversive stuff into their art when the whole movement was against that stuff so it’s led to the movement becoming utterly watered down in my view.
The guys became known as ‘Iron-Agers’. Trouble was that it became just a political movement when I had hoped it might lean more towards the cultural. Their catch-phrase was; ‘politics is downstream from culture, change the culture you change the politics’. While this is true to an extent, I later met Don Bluth who snorted and sneered and said, ‘Art comes from God, if you mix in politics you poison your own well and distance it from God.’
I came around more to Don’s thinking when I thought about it.
I myself tired of the movement (and politics) and since coming to Substackistan, have begun going my own way. If anything I want a ‘Fellowship’ mouvement like the Inklings, not a political movement.
Does that answer your question? I figured you deserved the full ‘essay’ rather than a glib video or a short-sentence or three, but the full Truth.
Thanks for your thorough answer! I appreciate it, as I am kind of in my own little world when it comes to writing. I can definitely see the appeal of a group like that, but I can also see how it could end up being co-opted by the self-serving and politics, like everything else in society. It’s a shame. One of the reasons I took refuge on Substack is because I hated how political books/publishing had become. I’d really love to have a politics-free zone for art to flourish unencumbered by any group’s agenda, if that’s even possible anymore.
I see that you reference Joseph Campbell sometimes. There’s a great Campbell lecture I’ve heard where he talks about the differences between “proper” and “improper” art, I think based on something in James Joyce. He categorizes improper art as that which arouses feelings of desire or loathing for the object presented. Art that causes desire (like an advertisement) is pornographic and art that causes loathing is didactic—instruction in what you shouldn’t like. Those kinds of books are written in the service of sociology. Campbell said most modern novelists are didactic pornographers. At the time, I thought it was a hilarious way to think of it but also mostly true. Would readers prefer to inspired rather than scolded when they pick up a book? Probably. They just don’t have many good options. We have to provide them :-)
And, no, I did not make any cuts to my book. Another benefit of being an indie writer!
Yes, it took me a minute to dig up the lecture, but it’s Lecture I.4.2 - Mythic Living; track 9: “Proper and Improper Art” and continues with 10: “The Secret Cause.” (Check out track 8: The Grail Quest and the Wasteland, too :-) I got them on iTunes. I love his lectures. Hope you enjoy!
The thing to remember about any label is that it isn't claiming to be part of that group isn't that makes one the thing. A writer might claim to be an 'iron ager' but if they aren't creating the works in the spirit of Conan, the Shadow or so on, what are they really?
There's a different name for them.
Grifters.
You know the duck by his quack.
Naturally to be around grifters would be tiresome, but that'll hardly stop you, Razorfist or many others from doing solid fiction!
That arch ranter has probably even already spat foul language about pretenders, not a gentleman to hold his tongue.
It's like with all the nonsense drama in the indie comic scene, beyond it you can see who is producing the works, who is just replicating mainstream slop either in different flavour or more of the same and who does nothing at all.
Of course any movement should be hounding those imposters who aren't quacking as the duck should. You can't just let a man keep claiming to be an icecream salesman when he's pushing cocaine and no icecream at all, often it's sadly not as clear cut as that though.
The Iron Age is no more tainted by such fools as Lord of the Rings is by Rangs of Powah.
It's actually quite like the na... that November writing thing, people can still do it regardless of what nonsense is going on.
That said, if someone wants to put genocidal political madness in their story they better dress it up a bit, give a little more than 'they're elves but communist/nazis'. Doctor Frankenstein it a bit at least and make a chimaeric wonder if you're going to just stuff the reak world in.
Political screeds aren't the real issue, the biggest problem is being lame and boring. While this teller might personally despise this or that ideology, the main reason for so many modern failures isn't so much the moonbat ideology but the slavish devotion to it renders the creators unable to make an enjoyable story with it. There's actually a lot of older stuff that also has the same subversive filth, difference was it was good entertainment too.
Now, this teller would argue that there's trains of thought that naturally lead to that sort of dead end, but that's a whole other railway.
Bottom line if you're going to be a moonbat be a glorious one, and just claiming to be part of a movement is never enough to be part of that movement.
Very happy to read this. My novel’s most recent complete draft clocked in around 225k, and I’d never meant for it to be that long. The next pass will be a bit longer, probably reaching a quarter mil. Very happy to hear there are readers out there who would stick around for a ride that long.
Personally, in many types of art, I enjoy minimalism, especially in fiction. I personally prefer to write that way, too. This doesn't mean I don't enjoy more maximalist writing, with long info dumps and exposition, only that it is another style. Frankly, either way in my opinion can be done beautifully. I agree however that minimalism has become a dogma, and much of the rules creative writing teachers ask us to follow are not derived from an ideal, but plucked out of thin air, masquerading as something more.
Hmm, I prefer maximalism but yes minimalism has indeed become a dogma one that disturbs me, I often wonder if they’re trying to minimize boredom or reading itself? Thoughts on this one?
In some cases, for sure - you are definitely correct. A classic example of commercialism and selling for the lowest common denominator. People today don't want long paragraphs, the publishers or teachers might say, they don't want poetic phrases or complex words, they add, they want easy-to-be-digested pages, and definitely no long books - don't challenge them too much. It's as if everything reads the same, a weird simplified auto-speak, so typical of modern journalism - so I'm with you there.
It's just that this 'simplified auto-speak' need not be lumped in entirely with minimalism. They are not one and the same. The ability to leave things out often is as difficult and skillful as knowing what to include. Personally, as a reader, I like the quick-moving, vague and abstract rendering, or incredibly clear, concise and simple, feel that expertly written minimalism gives. I also enjoy all the things that you celebrate in your article, all the background, exposition, like the ideas and mythos behind a certain faction in a book, why they are the way they are.
Also, I should have said before, for Mythic Fiction, I would agree that maximalist styles suit it better than minimalist ones, at least to me. And thinking about this now, I wonder if there is difference between third and first person. Because, I really enjoy minimalist first person renderings, like how people tell a story in real life, they don't have the time to give us all this backstory, and so have to forgo heaps of detail. However, when in third person, sometimes I feel I bit short-changed, almost as if the minimalism lacks identity, because it doesn't really have enough time (or words) to impart that identity. Does that make sense? So it feels a bit soulless. So maybe there's an important nuance between first and third person, I don't know.
When done minimalism can work (see the Dragonslayer novelization, which is minimalist but awesome), but for the most part the genre was built on maximalism as you put it so that it might work best with it in my view and in yours as you said.
Honestly minimalism also works best with mysteries, as I love Sherlock stories and love the end-story reveal and you can't get that if everything is over-described.
Every genre has its own needs, Mythic needs maximalism, Mystery minimalism (some of the time).
As to 3rd or 1st person, my brother and I have tried 1st person and have enjoyed it with regards to Varcola (our Dracula styled novel where we blend some minimalism with some maximalism depending on the chapter). And then there's the 3rd person of Brotherhood of the Gemstone or Darkspire Conspiracy but those operate within a frame-narrative, and then there's the grandiose Olympnomachi.
There might be an important nuance, I think the best middle-ground are to be found in writers like Howard & Tolkien who write third person but we know for ex; Merry wrote down later what he saw so we have a mix of 1st & 3rd, almost a '2nd' person narrative if that makes sense.
Hey np, if it got you thinking it did its job, heaven knows your excellent comments got me thinking.
And I hope you don't mind, but would you be alright with critiquing my Brotherhood of the Gemstone early chapters? They're right here, it's just I like how much thought you put into things and think I could use someone thinking that much critiquing and commenting on them.
Yeah its a fascinating conversation. Certainly, I've failed in writing science fiction and fantasy because I've written minimalist, without anything to base it on - no clear mythos or back story, just following the next idea where it leads. At the very least, I've realised that to write these genres effectively with minimalism, you really need to build your world.
Yeah for sure, I'd be happy too. Just finishing the second Dune book off (its a bit odd, I reckon), but after that I'll give them a read and leave some comments!
Oh I’m so sorry to hear about the troubles with writing in the genre. If you want mon ami, maybe you could try again? If you want we could always DM one another and I can help with lore and world-building? As it is, I’m helping two other friends that way, and would be delighted to help you also. You could then focus on the writing and not have to worry about the rest?
Wow, that would be wonderful - to have your insight would be incredible. I don't know when it would be, I have a few ideas floating around at the moment, but I won't pass this up. Could be well into next year sometime, but I'll DM you when I need some help.
Thank you - I'll definitely get to your work. Dune Messiah is quite odd, intriguing to start with, but so far is leaving me a bit unsatisfied. We'll see if Herbert can save it with the third act.
I wonder how often the below hypothetical scenario happens?
Someone hears writing advice that boils down to create your world, but share little of it with your audience. He decides to follow it and gets to writing.
But who wants to create a world that isn't shared? So after a bit, he gets discouraged and decides he doesn't need to world build. (Why spend time on something that the audience won't read?) So the writer skips the world building, and the result is characters who live among dragons but talk and act like modern people.
Agreed it is really strange, I mean when reading a world like say Hyborian Age, I keep perusing out of the desire to know more. It sounds really sad to think that they might simply be discouraged as you said. I now have pity for a great many writers now who do as you said.
Oh good, don’t worry about it. Honestly I plan to fill out more of Akuma no Ran later as it is an early draft, so it’s a fear that is natural, the key is not to listen to that nagging voice in the back of your head, let the Esprit-Saint flow and just write, write and write.
Write what you feel best okay? And I also say that because you’re a first-timer, and therefore need even more encouragement mon ami. You gotta find your voice, you gotta run before you walk.
If you need to edit it, you will do that later. You will revise, but you first need to throw your all into it. And if you need help or someone to proofread, we’ve an entire Fellowship to help you okay Tom?
Appreciate you. It’s not a confidence issue, honestly; I’m pretty sure these first ten chapters I’m rolling out here are the real deal (and I hope that’s not taken as bragging; I’m proud enough of them to share them is all!). I’m mostly trying to figure out whether that’s an entire “novel” or whether it’s the first quarter of the 300,000-word brick I originally imagined…
Hmm good question, maybe follow your instincts and feelings and see whether it is a brick or a whole book?
I know for me I have on book which is around 1mil words in English and it is pretty darn good I think (most of my reviewers and proofreaders say so (Brotherhood of the Gemstone I mean), but I chose to keep it together and make it Vol 1 of 3 (normally for me I write Vol 1 of 6 or 9). But am also writing shorter and smaller volumes in a more Silmarillionish style lately.
And honestly Tom, brag away if you want, you should be proud, and I hope do share them. If I’ve time between the current books I’m reading hereon Substack I’ll maybe sample yours later this week, if I’ve time despite starting job-training this week.
This need to tell more than just the bare-bones of a story is what is driving me to almost re-write Voyage of the Dawn Breaker. There was so much that I left out, so much that would have set the stage and let the reader understand why people did what they did.
Already, VoTD is a hundred pages longer, and goes into more depth.
Thank you brothers for sounding the warning bell. This tirade is very much appreciated, especially for one such as myself who admittedly does not write mythic fiction but has been told that his writing focuses on an insane level of political intrigue that is not friendly to the reader. Thank you for vindicating my histographic tendencies in fiction. I also agree with the opinions of @Eric Falden and @K.M. Carroll in their mistrust of deep pov. I myself do not particularly care for it and if authors like Stendhal and Austin did not use it than that is enough to make me suspicious of it.
On a random note... well, two random notes. Your desire for more detail in fiction reminds me of what I love about the films of Wong Kar-wai, specifically in the mood for love. In that movie, Wong Kar-wai does a wonderful job of sharing with the viewer the details of Hong Kong culture in the 60's-70's. By not skimping on the details that make no sense to an American viewer, you actually come away from the movie feeling like you learned something about another culture. To tie this back in to what you said in the post I feel like the more is more style you advocate for has the potential for greater immersion for the reader like in Wong Kar Wai's cinema.
The second random note @The Brothers Krynn. Since you seem in this post to argue for more mythic fantasy how would you feel about a fantasy serial with rich mythology. I have this idea for a project called the Silver Branch that would sort of be like Johnathan strange and Mr. Norrell meets Tolkien's unfinished Notion Club Papers. The problem is if I wrote it as one book it would be massive and given the way I write fantasy pretty much unpublishable. Since I discovered substack I've been trying to learn the ropes of writting a serialized novel and I think the Silver branch could be adapted to serialization. any thoughts on this project/doablity of mythic fantasy as a serial novel in general?
Okay I forgot to address the serial bit and was in a rush; aim for one chapter a month. That's what I do per story. Don't rush out a chapter but plan each one very slowly. You know?
Thanks. My main view on reading mythic fiction is that it helps instill a respect for the grandeur of the past. In an era where there is so much homogenization and banality and even fantasy sounds no different from the language we hear on the streets, we need fantasy that refuses to bend the knee to the god Casual and that shows us a vision of a culture unlike our own. Le Guin talks about this in one of the essays in Language of the Night, arguing that the language and style of fantasy should be elevated from common discourse. I've often told people that my own funny way of speaking came from the Silmarilion that it was Feanor and Manwe who taught me the art of refined speech. C.S. Lewis also discuses similar concepts in A Preface to Paradise Lost, where he laments the trivialization of the mythic for comic relief. I sympathize with this. I hate the modern tendency to take the spirit and nobility out of everything and I feel like Tolkien and the Silmarilion provide the counter to this deplorable aspect of modern culture. Now, I will admit I have not read much mythic fantasy besides the Silmarilion. I've wanted to write some mythic work of my own, to fill the void I feel for books like it, but I've always felt that there was a stigma around trying to write an epic as opposed to a novel. Of course, I feel like if there is any place to publish an epic it would be here on substack seeing as how I could find someone to read it.
I apologize for the long ish reply. To give the tldr. I like mythic fiction. I wish I read it more. I wish there were more works in that vein besides the Silmarilion. I've felt like a freak for liking this sort of thing which is why your rant on the subject touched a chord with me.
I'm giving you the link to the indexe. And I've suggested you for your serial aim for one chapter a month, plan it accordingly, go slow. Then as you grow in skill aim for twice a month.
And yes we do need Myths and Legends to combat homogeneity and banality as you said, well said good sir.
Thanks so much for writing this tirade! I beat this drum, too, long and hard. Maybe I should even write my own post on it. Modern editors and critique groups want to shave every genre down into a thriller. Thrillers are, by necessity, light on description and exposition. They're all about keeping the action moving, and honestly, when you're in a big modern city, you don't need truckloads of description or exposition anyway, except maybe about the villain's hideout. I've watched countless young fantasy authors unwittingly whittle down their lush prose into stripped-down thrillers. It's the antithesis of fantasy. Often I wonder if these authors ever questioned the narrative or ... you know ... ever tried to defend their art. I also blame the craze about Deep POV. It's a tool, not the whole book, people! .... Yeah I should just write a whole blogpost about it.
Fullly concur, they whittle and tear down their own worlds until they aren't even worlds anymore forgetting what Tolkien did and the example he and Howard set.
A lot of that is probably about the movie/video clip perspective that's really messing with writing styles, as if the written story is a poor replacement for things flashing across your screen.
Ohhhh good point sad that that’s affecting some writers.
Agreed on all points. For me it’s the dogmatic adherence to Deep POV that I see as a mistake. It may be “deep” for a given character but is in fact very shallow for the greater narrative.
I call it the RPG Video Game Camera, since it’s always locked on the protagonist, even if other views would actually be better to view the wider story.
Maybe “mistake” is too strong a word—that narrative voice has many strengths. But more I see it writers take that narrative voice (and subsequent distance) as the default, or as a necessity. And fantasy especially can do so much more when an author discards that.
Fair enough, I tend to keep to certain povs, but I’m working with a certain frame narrative.
But as to others they have to make their own decision and I don’t think one set pov fits every story.
I feel vindicated upon reading this.
And I feel overjoyed to hear that, honestly I’m always nervous when releasing a rant, as I feel like I’m slighting or otherwise venting to my beloved readers, Einherjar & Einherjar-Centurions. You all deserve the best. Nothing less than that, and rants aren’t something I like to go on too much (despite the evidence above lol).
Fascinating read. I agree that “less is more” is generally poor advice. It’s like “show don’t tell,” in that there’s a kernel of very good advice within the phrase, but the phrase has been reduced down to a vague nothingness that is repeated mindlessly by the writerly world to the point that the words are useless, and taking them at face value will send an author down the path to homogenous, droll writing.
However, being able to use sparse prose is, in my view, an excellent tool. Sometimes what you don’t say is more powerful than what you do, like horror movies NOT showing the monster. Stories that are rich in meaning will have lots left unsaid, things left in subtext, and morals left implicit.
Agreed, moi je prefere the maximalist approach, and do agree about what the writing world has been reduced to.
However, what you say about horror is not something I fully agree with, what I don't see bores me. I need to see the monster else I grow tired and shut the movie off (there are exceptions).
But there are times when stuff is best left in the subtext I do agree, and I think this can be done even with maximalism. That said, some storeis like action and mystery need minimalism.
The monster: I'm with you there (not unconditionally), the brooding menace of Jaws for instance is far more effective than a full frontal assault on the senses would have been. In books it's all about the fine balance between the stated and the implied.
Oh yes! Jaws pulled it off perfectly love that movie!
This is fantastic and inspiring! Honestly I’ve been afraid of info-dumping myself. With The Sword of Myn’, I separated out a huge world-building profile because I wasn’t sure how to keep the reader’s attention, as well as include all the flora/fauna/architecture/religion and everything else within the story itself (and that was just one of many worlds to be included in the novel). I might have to rethink this.
Also, thanks to Redwall especially, I love inserting songs into my stories! I usually include at least one. This makes me want to go even more in-depth with world-building (and use even more songs, too).
I get the fear, I suffer from it much of the time. But you gotta let go of it, and just trust in your world to draw people in. If you shave off its arms how can people feel its fingers (hope you don’t mind the strange metaphor)?
As to Redwall, ouais the songs are part of the joy, it’s why I always insert 2-5 in my stories, dunno if they’re any good but gotta. That reminds me, Bro Gemstone Vol 2 needs more of them!
Thanks! I guess I’ll see what feels most natural and go from there!
And yes, I approve of this idea of more songs!
Hahahaha oui et de rien
Long as I live, I will like or upvote literally anything to do with Redwall.
Hmm, then I gotta make some more Redwall content. Maybe I’ll download the kindle (I’ve the paperback copy) and start writing up a ‘Redwall Commentaries’ to go with the others I’m doing write now (I love this pun).
Redwall is awesome! The feasts get me every time 😂
I love the details in those scenes
Baby Rollo imitating Basil’s songs in Mattimeo was a brilliant running gag.
It was! I really need to reread those books, it’s been so long!
I’m almost done the first one, it is honestly amazing.
100%. I’ve currently got a six-month-old baby at home and I’m so so excited for him to be old enough for me to read them to him.
Hehehe, sounds awesome and congrats mon ami, may the Seigneur bless your boy, I hope he grows up knowing his Dad is a bestseller, and gifted much beauty and culture to this world so that he might stand that much taller when the time comes.
Congratulations! That’s going to be such a special time! I don’t know if you’ve seen them, but we grew up watching the animated episodes of the original Redwall book as well. That might be something fun to share when he’s a bit older!
That's great idea, do share them with him Tom! This way he'll grow up with the same wonder we did!
I can't tell you how encouraging this is. The often good-natured advice of "pare it down" has lead me to believe I'm a pedantic blabbermouth who writes too much, but even just the prospect that maybe I don't writer too much is so uplifting. It makes me think that maybe I write tons of details and scenes because there is so much to know about this world and these characters, and that is a good thing, a GRAND thing. Sure, I'm not perfect and still need polish, but by gum, if I want to write details and people and magic and more, I should! Thanks for the inspiration, my friend.
You're bienvenue mon ami, you should never be forced to 'pare it down' to shave away the beauty, the glory, the greatness of the world that you pored your blood, sweat and tears into. The world that you spent so much time upon, time that could have been spent elsewhere and upon other things so that what you have built is a gift. It must be shared! It must be shared! So do so, mon ami and I really am glad to have encouraged and uplifted you, I only hope you might uplift others with the beauty of your own prose, your own works of beauty!
"I see writers all the time, describing the ‘Deep Lore of Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion’ as boring over on twitter. A part of me wants to shake them and scream at them (instead I just unfollow)"
Ah, this is maturity.
It's a neat observation about the "too modern" feel of some books; this is something that puts me off most ostensibly "historical" or "period" novels and almost all the movies and TV: there is a very clear sense that these are modern people in somewhat more exciting clothes. In other words, the story is presented as epic fantasy when it's actually a pseudo-superhero story, for instance, or high school shenanigans disguised as Regency novels and so on.
Triste but true, as to maturity being unfollowing them, I dunno. I just don’t have the energy or time to argue with them anymore, I gotta really build up this platform and work on my stories. I’ve several collaborative projects I’m working on for this week and next month, and job-training. Don’t have time for them.
Used to be I tried changing their minds, now I don’t think I have the power to or the will to. Let another, more charismatic do it.
I think that’s the difference between the messianic complex and the desire to have a conversation about something that really matters. If you find someone smart who is willing to discuss and argue ideas it’s great but it seldom happens, why run after someone dogmatic who is just spouting stuff?
Not to mention the more dogmatic I get the angrier they’ll become and more justified in taking a different stance.
I do agree. These limitations often deprive the readers of the atmosphere the stories are trying to establish. Instead, we're told to focus on the characters to the point where were practically writing soap operas. Restricting your prose to character arcs becomes dreary after a while.
Exactement, it is because they want us writing cheap GoT knockoffs in some ways, and the indie scene outside substackistan doesn’t help as too many writers follow the lead of the mainstream without question oddly enough.
This especially harms sci-fi and fantasy.
Agreed!
Very much agree! My favorite fantasy literature all have a large history / myth background - it’s essential for building the secondary world, which is the basis of “escapism “ to me. The achievements / tragedies of the story are more meaningful at the end if I understand where the story actually begins (if that makes sense).
I do understand, and it is the same way for me, it is why I write the Brotherhood of the Gemstone and Olympnomachi the way I do. I need them to be huge, to have a lengthy history and mythical cycle behind them.
Without the huge body of myths, and history and anthropology could Hour of the Dragon & Lord of the Rings even be what they are?
Well said. I remember pitching my book to agents who, without ever reading a word of it, would tell me it sounded great but that I still needed to cut 50-60k words from the manuscript before they'd even consider it. Wondering if maybe they were right, I sent it to an editor and he told me at most he would maybe cut 5k words—everything else in the book was necessary for the story. The cynic in me thinks part of the "less is more" pressure comes down to shaping books to fit publishers' arbitrary word counts. It's economics masquerading as aesthetics.
On another subject, could someone explain the "Iron-Ager" thing to me?
That’s awful! Sounds like they wanted to take a hatchet job to the book, hope you didn’t listen to them yes you need an editor but one who will listen to you and your vision not dictate you theirs!
But ouais it is possibly as you said to fit with publishers’ arbitrary vision of things.
Iron-Age is a right-wing art movement begun on yt by Razorfist, it spread to twitter among his fans. I joined in on some online meetings and discussions, but while I liked a lot of early discussion stuff and what not I’ve begun to observe more and more dishonest fellows slipping in.
The movement was a counter-cultural Anglosphere one about taking back the culture so to speak from left-wing corporations and from hollywood and publishers. An attempt to get us making movies and books like in the 60s for movies (or up to the 80s) and for books to go back to the 19th or early 20th century. Sounded noble. But before you knew it, you had guys slipping in wanting to just make a buck and then doing nothing after that and not really supporting the rest.
Trouble also was that a number of people slipped in saying ‘I’m with the Iron-Age’ when they are clearly not conservative, but were accepted by the rest. And this has led to confusion and stuff, there’s also some writing very political, very subversive stuff into their art when the whole movement was against that stuff so it’s led to the movement becoming utterly watered down in my view.
The guys became known as ‘Iron-Agers’. Trouble was that it became just a political movement when I had hoped it might lean more towards the cultural. Their catch-phrase was; ‘politics is downstream from culture, change the culture you change the politics’. While this is true to an extent, I later met Don Bluth who snorted and sneered and said, ‘Art comes from God, if you mix in politics you poison your own well and distance it from God.’
I came around more to Don’s thinking when I thought about it.
I myself tired of the movement (and politics) and since coming to Substackistan, have begun going my own way. If anything I want a ‘Fellowship’ mouvement like the Inklings, not a political movement.
Does that answer your question? I figured you deserved the full ‘essay’ rather than a glib video or a short-sentence or three, but the full Truth.
Thanks for your thorough answer! I appreciate it, as I am kind of in my own little world when it comes to writing. I can definitely see the appeal of a group like that, but I can also see how it could end up being co-opted by the self-serving and politics, like everything else in society. It’s a shame. One of the reasons I took refuge on Substack is because I hated how political books/publishing had become. I’d really love to have a politics-free zone for art to flourish unencumbered by any group’s agenda, if that’s even possible anymore.
I see that you reference Joseph Campbell sometimes. There’s a great Campbell lecture I’ve heard where he talks about the differences between “proper” and “improper” art, I think based on something in James Joyce. He categorizes improper art as that which arouses feelings of desire or loathing for the object presented. Art that causes desire (like an advertisement) is pornographic and art that causes loathing is didactic—instruction in what you shouldn’t like. Those kinds of books are written in the service of sociology. Campbell said most modern novelists are didactic pornographers. At the time, I thought it was a hilarious way to think of it but also mostly true. Would readers prefer to inspired rather than scolded when they pick up a book? Probably. They just don’t have many good options. We have to provide them :-)
And, no, I did not make any cuts to my book. Another benefit of being an indie writer!
Love all your points here, and I do love Campbell, can you point me to the lecture where he talks about novels?
And yeah the movement's gotten frustrating.
Yes, it took me a minute to dig up the lecture, but it’s Lecture I.4.2 - Mythic Living; track 9: “Proper and Improper Art” and continues with 10: “The Secret Cause.” (Check out track 8: The Grail Quest and the Wasteland, too :-) I got them on iTunes. I love his lectures. Hope you enjoy!
Oh absolutely, I’ll give ‘em all a listen this should be exciting!
The thing to remember about any label is that it isn't claiming to be part of that group isn't that makes one the thing. A writer might claim to be an 'iron ager' but if they aren't creating the works in the spirit of Conan, the Shadow or so on, what are they really?
There's a different name for them.
Grifters.
You know the duck by his quack.
Naturally to be around grifters would be tiresome, but that'll hardly stop you, Razorfist or many others from doing solid fiction!
That arch ranter has probably even already spat foul language about pretenders, not a gentleman to hold his tongue.
It's like with all the nonsense drama in the indie comic scene, beyond it you can see who is producing the works, who is just replicating mainstream slop either in different flavour or more of the same and who does nothing at all.
Of course any movement should be hounding those imposters who aren't quacking as the duck should. You can't just let a man keep claiming to be an icecream salesman when he's pushing cocaine and no icecream at all, often it's sadly not as clear cut as that though.
The Iron Age is no more tainted by such fools as Lord of the Rings is by Rangs of Powah.
It's actually quite like the na... that November writing thing, people can still do it regardless of what nonsense is going on.
That said, if someone wants to put genocidal political madness in their story they better dress it up a bit, give a little more than 'they're elves but communist/nazis'. Doctor Frankenstein it a bit at least and make a chimaeric wonder if you're going to just stuff the reak world in.
Political screeds aren't the real issue, the biggest problem is being lame and boring. While this teller might personally despise this or that ideology, the main reason for so many modern failures isn't so much the moonbat ideology but the slavish devotion to it renders the creators unable to make an enjoyable story with it. There's actually a lot of older stuff that also has the same subversive filth, difference was it was good entertainment too.
Now, this teller would argue that there's trains of thought that naturally lead to that sort of dead end, but that's a whole other railway.
Bottom line if you're going to be a moonbat be a glorious one, and just claiming to be part of a movement is never enough to be part of that movement.
Fully agreed, and thanks definitely appreciate the pep talk Snowyteller, you’re definitely one of the best at it.
Lacking most else, one would at least hope for that. Thank you.
Non thank you
Very happy to read this. My novel’s most recent complete draft clocked in around 225k, and I’d never meant for it to be that long. The next pass will be a bit longer, probably reaching a quarter mil. Very happy to hear there are readers out there who would stick around for a ride that long.
Course we would especially with your prose and world-building, I really can’t wait to see it
Personally, in many types of art, I enjoy minimalism, especially in fiction. I personally prefer to write that way, too. This doesn't mean I don't enjoy more maximalist writing, with long info dumps and exposition, only that it is another style. Frankly, either way in my opinion can be done beautifully. I agree however that minimalism has become a dogma, and much of the rules creative writing teachers ask us to follow are not derived from an ideal, but plucked out of thin air, masquerading as something more.
Hmm, I prefer maximalism but yes minimalism has indeed become a dogma one that disturbs me, I often wonder if they’re trying to minimize boredom or reading itself? Thoughts on this one?
In some cases, for sure - you are definitely correct. A classic example of commercialism and selling for the lowest common denominator. People today don't want long paragraphs, the publishers or teachers might say, they don't want poetic phrases or complex words, they add, they want easy-to-be-digested pages, and definitely no long books - don't challenge them too much. It's as if everything reads the same, a weird simplified auto-speak, so typical of modern journalism - so I'm with you there.
It's just that this 'simplified auto-speak' need not be lumped in entirely with minimalism. They are not one and the same. The ability to leave things out often is as difficult and skillful as knowing what to include. Personally, as a reader, I like the quick-moving, vague and abstract rendering, or incredibly clear, concise and simple, feel that expertly written minimalism gives. I also enjoy all the things that you celebrate in your article, all the background, exposition, like the ideas and mythos behind a certain faction in a book, why they are the way they are.
Also, I should have said before, for Mythic Fiction, I would agree that maximalist styles suit it better than minimalist ones, at least to me. And thinking about this now, I wonder if there is difference between third and first person. Because, I really enjoy minimalist first person renderings, like how people tell a story in real life, they don't have the time to give us all this backstory, and so have to forgo heaps of detail. However, when in third person, sometimes I feel I bit short-changed, almost as if the minimalism lacks identity, because it doesn't really have enough time (or words) to impart that identity. Does that make sense? So it feels a bit soulless. So maybe there's an important nuance between first and third person, I don't know.
Great article to get me thinking though, man.
When done minimalism can work (see the Dragonslayer novelization, which is minimalist but awesome), but for the most part the genre was built on maximalism as you put it so that it might work best with it in my view and in yours as you said.
Honestly minimalism also works best with mysteries, as I love Sherlock stories and love the end-story reveal and you can't get that if everything is over-described.
Every genre has its own needs, Mythic needs maximalism, Mystery minimalism (some of the time).
As to 3rd or 1st person, my brother and I have tried 1st person and have enjoyed it with regards to Varcola (our Dracula styled novel where we blend some minimalism with some maximalism depending on the chapter). And then there's the 3rd person of Brotherhood of the Gemstone or Darkspire Conspiracy but those operate within a frame-narrative, and then there's the grandiose Olympnomachi.
There might be an important nuance, I think the best middle-ground are to be found in writers like Howard & Tolkien who write third person but we know for ex; Merry wrote down later what he saw so we have a mix of 1st & 3rd, almost a '2nd' person narrative if that makes sense.
Hey np, if it got you thinking it did its job, heaven knows your excellent comments got me thinking.
And I hope you don't mind, but would you be alright with critiquing my Brotherhood of the Gemstone early chapters? They're right here, it's just I like how much thought you put into things and think I could use someone thinking that much critiquing and commenting on them.
Yeah its a fascinating conversation. Certainly, I've failed in writing science fiction and fantasy because I've written minimalist, without anything to base it on - no clear mythos or back story, just following the next idea where it leads. At the very least, I've realised that to write these genres effectively with minimalism, you really need to build your world.
Yeah for sure, I'd be happy too. Just finishing the second Dune book off (its a bit odd, I reckon), but after that I'll give them a read and leave some comments!
Oh I’m so sorry to hear about the troubles with writing in the genre. If you want mon ami, maybe you could try again? If you want we could always DM one another and I can help with lore and world-building? As it is, I’m helping two other friends that way, and would be delighted to help you also. You could then focus on the writing and not have to worry about the rest?
As to Dune, take your time. I’d rather you finish reading what you’re reading right now before you even think of touching my humble work. https://canadianculturecorner.substack.com/p/brotherhood-of-the-gemstone-table
Wow, that would be wonderful - to have your insight would be incredible. I don't know when it would be, I have a few ideas floating around at the moment, but I won't pass this up. Could be well into next year sometime, but I'll DM you when I need some help.
Thank you - I'll definitely get to your work. Dune Messiah is quite odd, intriguing to start with, but so far is leaving me a bit unsatisfied. We'll see if Herbert can save it with the third act.
I wonder how often the below hypothetical scenario happens?
Someone hears writing advice that boils down to create your world, but share little of it with your audience. He decides to follow it and gets to writing.
But who wants to create a world that isn't shared? So after a bit, he gets discouraged and decides he doesn't need to world build. (Why spend time on something that the audience won't read?) So the writer skips the world building, and the result is characters who live among dragons but talk and act like modern people.
Agreed it is really strange, I mean when reading a world like say Hyborian Age, I keep perusing out of the desire to know more. It sounds really sad to think that they might simply be discouraged as you said. I now have pity for a great many writers now who do as you said.
I have been worrying for quite some time about the risks of pushing something enormous as a first-time author. Thanks for this. The details will flow.
Oh good, don’t worry about it. Honestly I plan to fill out more of Akuma no Ran later as it is an early draft, so it’s a fear that is natural, the key is not to listen to that nagging voice in the back of your head, let the Esprit-Saint flow and just write, write and write.
Write what you feel best okay? And I also say that because you’re a first-timer, and therefore need even more encouragement mon ami. You gotta find your voice, you gotta run before you walk.
If you need to edit it, you will do that later. You will revise, but you first need to throw your all into it. And if you need help or someone to proofread, we’ve an entire Fellowship to help you okay Tom?
Appreciate you. It’s not a confidence issue, honestly; I’m pretty sure these first ten chapters I’m rolling out here are the real deal (and I hope that’s not taken as bragging; I’m proud enough of them to share them is all!). I’m mostly trying to figure out whether that’s an entire “novel” or whether it’s the first quarter of the 300,000-word brick I originally imagined…
Hmm good question, maybe follow your instincts and feelings and see whether it is a brick or a whole book?
I know for me I have on book which is around 1mil words in English and it is pretty darn good I think (most of my reviewers and proofreaders say so (Brotherhood of the Gemstone I mean), but I chose to keep it together and make it Vol 1 of 3 (normally for me I write Vol 1 of 6 or 9). But am also writing shorter and smaller volumes in a more Silmarillionish style lately.
And honestly Tom, brag away if you want, you should be proud, and I hope do share them. If I’ve time between the current books I’m reading hereon Substack I’ll maybe sample yours later this week, if I’ve time despite starting job-training this week.
Hey man, love to hear your feedback if you get the chance!
I’ll try to set the time aside this week X)
This need to tell more than just the bare-bones of a story is what is driving me to almost re-write Voyage of the Dawn Breaker. There was so much that I left out, so much that would have set the stage and let the reader understand why people did what they did.
Already, VoTD is a hundred pages longer, and goes into more depth.
The mythology of story is important. Believe me.
Yeah you’re absolutely right
All the this!
Proviso, the exposition must be good—mythic! With a strong use of language.
I’ve never been afraid of strong exposition.
Agreed on every point.
Amen!
Thank you brothers for sounding the warning bell. This tirade is very much appreciated, especially for one such as myself who admittedly does not write mythic fiction but has been told that his writing focuses on an insane level of political intrigue that is not friendly to the reader. Thank you for vindicating my histographic tendencies in fiction. I also agree with the opinions of @Eric Falden and @K.M. Carroll in their mistrust of deep pov. I myself do not particularly care for it and if authors like Stendhal and Austin did not use it than that is enough to make me suspicious of it.
On a random note... well, two random notes. Your desire for more detail in fiction reminds me of what I love about the films of Wong Kar-wai, specifically in the mood for love. In that movie, Wong Kar-wai does a wonderful job of sharing with the viewer the details of Hong Kong culture in the 60's-70's. By not skimping on the details that make no sense to an American viewer, you actually come away from the movie feeling like you learned something about another culture. To tie this back in to what you said in the post I feel like the more is more style you advocate for has the potential for greater immersion for the reader like in Wong Kar Wai's cinema.
The second random note @The Brothers Krynn. Since you seem in this post to argue for more mythic fantasy how would you feel about a fantasy serial with rich mythology. I have this idea for a project called the Silver Branch that would sort of be like Johnathan strange and Mr. Norrell meets Tolkien's unfinished Notion Club Papers. The problem is if I wrote it as one book it would be massive and given the way I write fantasy pretty much unpublishable. Since I discovered substack I've been trying to learn the ropes of writting a serialized novel and I think the Silver branch could be adapted to serialization. any thoughts on this project/doablity of mythic fantasy as a serial novel in general?
Okay I forgot to address the serial bit and was in a rush; aim for one chapter a month. That's what I do per story. Don't rush out a chapter but plan each one very slowly. You know?
I do know. I've been aiming for one chapter a month because that is what works with my school schedule at the moment.
Makes sense, oh and what are you taking in university or college if you don’t mind my asking good sir?
I'm working towards my paralegal degree.
Impressive
Thank you.
Hahahaha np, and Eric & Carroll are brilliant writers and essayists on a whole other level from myself.
And they are very much correct about deep pov.
Can I ask what you’re view is on reading Mythic Fiction? But as to political intrigue cool, that stuff is always really interesting.
Thanks. My main view on reading mythic fiction is that it helps instill a respect for the grandeur of the past. In an era where there is so much homogenization and banality and even fantasy sounds no different from the language we hear on the streets, we need fantasy that refuses to bend the knee to the god Casual and that shows us a vision of a culture unlike our own. Le Guin talks about this in one of the essays in Language of the Night, arguing that the language and style of fantasy should be elevated from common discourse. I've often told people that my own funny way of speaking came from the Silmarilion that it was Feanor and Manwe who taught me the art of refined speech. C.S. Lewis also discuses similar concepts in A Preface to Paradise Lost, where he laments the trivialization of the mythic for comic relief. I sympathize with this. I hate the modern tendency to take the spirit and nobility out of everything and I feel like Tolkien and the Silmarilion provide the counter to this deplorable aspect of modern culture. Now, I will admit I have not read much mythic fantasy besides the Silmarilion. I've wanted to write some mythic work of my own, to fill the void I feel for books like it, but I've always felt that there was a stigma around trying to write an epic as opposed to a novel. Of course, I feel like if there is any place to publish an epic it would be here on substack seeing as how I could find someone to read it.
I apologize for the long ish reply. To give the tldr. I like mythic fiction. I wish I read it more. I wish there were more works in that vein besides the Silmarilion. I've felt like a freak for liking this sort of thing which is why your rant on the subject touched a chord with me.
You're not a freak for loving good Faerie story my friend, if you like I've tried writing epic stuff in the vain of Silmarillion; https://canadianculturecorner.substack.com/p/the-first-book-of-the-olympnomachi-7ea
I'm giving you the link to the indexe. And I've suggested you for your serial aim for one chapter a month, plan it accordingly, go slow. Then as you grow in skill aim for twice a month.
And yes we do need Myths and Legends to combat homogeneity and banality as you said, well said good sir.
Thanks. I've been meaning to check out the olympnomachi.
Merci, I only hope it isn’t too poorly written