The nerve of the fat goblin to talk of incompleteness!
Know what's really incomplete? George's series!
I'm sure plenty of noble trolls and regular humans have thrown that one in his face.
This is the reminder that the two Rs in George's name both stand for rape.
Isn't it interesting that Tolkien's works are thrown to the dogs in TV media with Rings of Powah, but George's House of the Dragon doesn't get such a sham of a production?
It's enough to make one put on a tinfoil crusader helm.
"Isn't it interesting that Tolkien's works are thrown to the dogs in TV media with Rings of Powah, but George's House of the Dragon doesn't get such a sham of a production?"
I'm watching the first season of House of the Dragon, and it's not very good at all. I didn't expect much, but it hasn't even met my modest expectations for it. So far it is just a bad soap opera in fantasy garb. I don't expect it to get much better either.
I’ve been pretty disappointed also, I went in with some high-hopes to see some dragons squabbling and some scheming and to see some armies gathering by muppet named heroes and still nothing but whining and fussing. It’s been awfully disappointing. Matt Smith is putting on a powerful performance but he’s wasted on the show.
Wait, why would they get mad? You were just saying your opinion, I do agree with you. I’m watching Hot D as a friend calls it for a yt show of mine but I’m utterly bored.
What's funny is I've been one of the few who was always against Martin's writings, but if I speak out I'm shut down. But now that's changing—now that he's speaking against Tolkien, people have jumped off his bandwagon and it's becoming normal to criticize him. He thought himself on Tolkien's level and his arrogance has backfired.
I remember reading his books and couldn't make it past book three. He killed every likeable character in the series and after that I didn't care.
The quote where he said he would've killed Gandalf should've been, "I would've killed the entire Fellowship of the Ring, Galadriel and Bilbo. Then you would have to read about Gollum and Boromir trying to take the ring to Mount Doom for 6 books afterwards."
Then he’d revive the whole of the Fellowship without an explanation. I was always annoyed that he kept reviving characters like Cat Stark, I could not understand it, then there was Jon Snow. My thoughts were; he should have died in book 1, how is this guy still alive?
I do agree with you he struggles with likeable characters.
Guys like Martin and the current slew of children's book authors are the ones who inspired me to pen my book, The Rooster Rider. I was sick of the propaganda vomit being passed off as children's book. I aimed mine at boys from 8-13 years of age. It has good reviews on Amazon.com. I wanted a hero who was good, in his core good. I wanted to remind people there was a thing called Chivalry, and it is well worth keeping. I wanted to show that fighting men are not mindless brutes but believers in something greater. I have a sequel in production, The Rooster Rider II: GutRipper's Revenge. Also have fragments and plans for 5 books total (The Rooster Rider, The Rooster Rider II: GutRipper's Revenge, TRR III: Warlock of the Woodlands, TRR IV: Demon in the Forest, and TRR V: Sword of Michael. I'd best get busy editing...)
Someone has to push back against the black-souled, aging perverts like GRR Martin.
I guess it is them who inspired myself to write chivalrous fantasy stories also. In my case, I’ve written one dark-fantasy story that deals with the war for a crown but it has plenty of elements of chivalry in it; Crown of Blood.
It is how I started my writing career :D Recently, I have been reformatting the books one after another, so they are up to date with my recently leveled up formatting skill. This year I need to complete book 8 of the series, which is set on Asgard of my alt history universe. That, and reformat book 4, possibly book 5 - Secrets Of Lothoria, perhaps one of the most beloved by my readers so far.
It's funny because I'm not one of those who blindly support Tolkien. I actually have serious disagreements with JRRT, particularly with his famous saying of history as a "long defeat". I would love to cross-examine the good professor on what he meant by that.
So I do somewhat sympathize with GRRM when he said that he wanted to argue with Professor Tolkien, because frankly I want to argue with Professor Tolkien too. But this quote is damning, to be honest. I'm not a fantasy aficionado like you are, and I missed the GoT hype train when it first came out (Thanks be to God for that), so I'm not really an expert here. But for what it's worth, I think you're spot on here. Given the reputation he had crafted for himself and his works, I don't think it's uncharitable to claim that Martin is resentful of Tolkien.
But that said Tolkien’s statement is incomplete, here’s the rest; “I am a Christian…so that I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’ — though it contains (and in a legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.”
So that what he is saying is commenting on the return of Christ. And that there are to be many defeats along the way, even as there are to be victories. Along the way according to Christian belief; Satan in time gets the upper hand, but then in the end we Christians, we servants of Christ ultimately claim victory.
The less said the better. I have read his work, I was not impressed, It seemed to me that the focuspoint, theme was betrayal. Betrayal is the highest morality and motivator, followed by ruthless desire. Robert Jordan did a much better job world building, the Wheel of Time is better written, has a far more intricate plot, better characters, celebrates honor, integrity, truth, love, courage, duty, sacrifice.
I read Martins series once. I have reread Jordans Wheel of time multiple times.
David Weber, John Ringo, S M Stirling, all deserve far more attention and thought than martin.
As for anti heroes, Moorcocks Eternal Champion series of stories is beyond epic.
Agreed, about betrayal being the main theme and motivation of his work. It’s what led to some confusion on my part as to why his character would sometimes contradict themselves and their personalities all of a sudden.
Yeah Jordan was a great-world-builder as were the others you mentioned.
I (mostly) enjoyed the GoT books for what they were, but Martin is undeniably overrated. Also, 99.9% of the sex in his books is either incest or flat out rape, which just goes to show how he really feels about sex and women.
His books are the Michael Bay stories of fantasy, and he is overrated. Which is why the more he’s pushed forward the more I buck back (I’m French, it’s instinctive for us).
How GRR Martin ever got his garbage pooblished is a mystery to me. And any who dare compare him to the likes of Tolkien are fools; Martin isn't fit to mention Tolkien's name.
Martin is another sick old hippie pervert vomiting up his nihilism and degeneracy in verbose, excessive, sickening books. He's got a lot of it to puke, apparently. How it ever became 'popular' I'll never understand.
I do agree for the most part, but if I had to guess how he got popular I’ll say it was the Media. When you have the whole of HBO/WB, Amazon and the rest of the big companies backing you up and pushing you forward in front of every person’s nose you’re bound to make millions and become popular.
Proof that manufactured popularity is not quality, nor is it a true reflection of anything other than a corrupt system putting on display the diseased ramblings of an equally corrupt and sickened soul.
The sad thing is that with modern hollyweird pumping out nihilism and postmodernist garbage, they have normalized a misguided disdain for songs, poetry, and inspirational heroic archetypes in storytelling.
GoT is worse than Eragon, not that Eragon sets a high bar and I would say that there are few high-fantasies that are trash.
To call GoT trash is no great insult rather because of the mindset of the writer, the lack of themes, the shallowness of the motifs and characters and the mediocrity of the style it is fitting to call it such.
There is NOTHING wild about calling an ace an ace. GoT IS trash. It’s pointless, filled with sexual perversions, torture, and sickened people. It has more to do with the author’s base character than anything else. It’s lit-porn with more than average degeneracy.
I haven't read Martin but I will say that a lot of modern fantasy has adopted the grimdark setting and that's made me step away from the new stuff. I want chivalry and goodness and fighting for what is right; I'm sick of the morally gray characters and people surviving in a world that's already dead and faithless. What's wrong with a good vs. evil story? And as a Christian, I could really do with more fantasy stories that don't bash monotheistic religions every chance they get.
This is why I write what I want to write; I write chivalric stories, and tales of love and hope and faith. Honestly, I’m not sure my tales are Christian but they’ve been infused with Christian themes and motifs so maybe I’m headed in that direction with time hahaha.
But anyways, yeah we need less grimdark these days and more hope.
Years ago I saw Martin on Stephen Colbert talking trash about Tolkien for not writing sex scenes, and immediately lost all respect. Shitting is an important part of life too, maybe all books should include scenes with characters on the toilet to be legitimate, by Martin's logic.
That is exactly how his logic works, if one takes it to its logical conclusion and it is what he wants so that we tear out what is essential and put in what is not into Fantasy/Mythology. I’ve seen that clip of him with Colbert and it caused my own respect for him to drop and disappear.
That's not to say I agree with Martin, or wish to defend him. I've put his work down twice, and I think his characters lack depth. It's not for me.
However, I don't think you've given Martin a fair trial here.
I think you've extrapolated too much from the quote, and I think, to some degree (not in an absolute sense, but in places), you've conflated sex and depravity.
I think it's also unfair to distil Martin's works down to sex and depravity. There is a good chunk of heroism and goodness in his work, though there is obviously a fair amount of darkness.
Where I think you have grounds is the morality or worth in turning that depravity into base entertainment, which is what his work does at times. Clearly, it's gratuitous.
But remember. Whatever Martin writes down in a book, the real world is worse. It's a shame Martin cheapened those darker elements instead of using them to say something more important. But clearly, there's a market for it, so maybe Martin isn't really the problem, but a reflection of wider society. I guess it gets circular.
Fair point, maybe the problem is indeed circular, I think I’ve given him a fair trial, but think you’ve come in with an interesting perspective that’s worth considering also. I do appreciate you’re words both critical of him and my essay, mon ami.
Well said. I think Brandon Sanderson and his mentor(In spirit mostly) Robert Jordan are more apt to be described as American Tolkien's.
And the formers work has recieved many of the same criticisms from media that Martin is levying against Tolkien.
Robert Jordan is dead and the media rights to his books are unfortunately owned by a Hollywood studio so unless your willing to read his 14 book series, the last 3 of which were finished by Sanderson after Jordan asked him on his deathbed to finish the series, most people will know nothing about other than what Amazon shamefully puts out.
I would say Robert E. Howard came first and that Tolkien is the Howard of England. Howard also wrote the Hour of the Dragon in 1936 I believe and it has the same plot as LOTR.
That said, I guess Jordan’s a good contender, though his work is sci-fi given it takes place in the future.
Thats fair with regard to Howard, I'd never considered that before.
I'd have to hard disagree about Jordans work being Science fiction though. Merely saying a story takes place in the future doesn't make something science fiction. Terry Brooks Shannara series is a post-apocalyptic story that takes place in our world but almost no one would call it science fiction because it has swords, magic, elves, dwarves etc.
Life is very full of bowel movements. Should a novel be considered incomplete without a literary consideration of the nature of a structurally perfect stool?
The nerve of the fat goblin to talk of incompleteness!
Know what's really incomplete? George's series!
I'm sure plenty of noble trolls and regular humans have thrown that one in his face.
This is the reminder that the two Rs in George's name both stand for rape.
Isn't it interesting that Tolkien's works are thrown to the dogs in TV media with Rings of Powah, but George's House of the Dragon doesn't get such a sham of a production?
It's enough to make one put on a tinfoil crusader helm.
It is indeed, Rings of ‘Powah’ has so little to do with Tolkien it may as well be another Game of Thrones series.
"Isn't it interesting that Tolkien's works are thrown to the dogs in TV media with Rings of Powah, but George's House of the Dragon doesn't get such a sham of a production?"
Hey nonny nonny no, it's not by mistake.
Fair point
I'm watching the first season of House of the Dragon, and it's not very good at all. I didn't expect much, but it hasn't even met my modest expectations for it. So far it is just a bad soap opera in fantasy garb. I don't expect it to get much better either.
I’ve been pretty disappointed also, I went in with some high-hopes to see some dragons squabbling and some scheming and to see some armies gathering by muppet named heroes and still nothing but whining and fussing. It’s been awfully disappointing. Matt Smith is putting on a powerful performance but he’s wasted on the show.
House of Dragons is just bad. So is Rings of Power. When I dared to say so on Trakt people got really mad.
Wait, why would they get mad? You were just saying your opinion, I do agree with you. I’m watching Hot D as a friend calls it for a yt show of mine but I’m utterly bored.
People get mad for all sorts of reasons… 🤷
Agreed
The only thing HOD has going for it are the dragons. If you chopped all the people out, and just had dragons, it would be a way better show.
Very true
There’s an idea! A show from the POV of the dragons with the Voice of Sean Connery.
Yeah, I wonder if anyone’s ever done that before ;)
What's funny is I've been one of the few who was always against Martin's writings, but if I speak out I'm shut down. But now that's changing—now that he's speaking against Tolkien, people have jumped off his bandwagon and it's becoming normal to criticize him. He thought himself on Tolkien's level and his arrogance has backfired.
I was always the same, and only some of my irl friends would back me up but folks online shut me down.
Now we’re able to. I also t hink it’s that Indie-Writers hereon Substack and over on Twitter are getting bolder.
I remember reading his books and couldn't make it past book three. He killed every likeable character in the series and after that I didn't care.
The quote where he said he would've killed Gandalf should've been, "I would've killed the entire Fellowship of the Ring, Galadriel and Bilbo. Then you would have to read about Gollum and Boromir trying to take the ring to Mount Doom for 6 books afterwards."
Then he’d revive the whole of the Fellowship without an explanation. I was always annoyed that he kept reviving characters like Cat Stark, I could not understand it, then there was Jon Snow. My thoughts were; he should have died in book 1, how is this guy still alive?
I do agree with you he struggles with likeable characters.
Don't worry, you're not the only one... 😂
Hahahaha thanks
Guys like Martin and the current slew of children's book authors are the ones who inspired me to pen my book, The Rooster Rider. I was sick of the propaganda vomit being passed off as children's book. I aimed mine at boys from 8-13 years of age. It has good reviews on Amazon.com. I wanted a hero who was good, in his core good. I wanted to remind people there was a thing called Chivalry, and it is well worth keeping. I wanted to show that fighting men are not mindless brutes but believers in something greater. I have a sequel in production, The Rooster Rider II: GutRipper's Revenge. Also have fragments and plans for 5 books total (The Rooster Rider, The Rooster Rider II: GutRipper's Revenge, TRR III: Warlock of the Woodlands, TRR IV: Demon in the Forest, and TRR V: Sword of Michael. I'd best get busy editing...)
Someone has to push back against the black-souled, aging perverts like GRR Martin.
I guess it is them who inspired myself to write chivalrous fantasy stories also. In my case, I’ve written one dark-fantasy story that deals with the war for a crown but it has plenty of elements of chivalry in it; Crown of Blood.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CZ77L6D8
Excellent! Perhaps you and your boys would like my Starshatter series?
We’ll have to take a look at it
It is how I started my writing career :D Recently, I have been reformatting the books one after another, so they are up to date with my recently leveled up formatting skill. This year I need to complete book 8 of the series, which is set on Asgard of my alt history universe. That, and reformat book 4, possibly book 5 - Secrets Of Lothoria, perhaps one of the most beloved by my readers so far.
Cool, keep on keeping on mon ami.
I am simple man. I see Faramir quotation, I like.
Hahaha I get that, I’m the same way.
It's funny because I'm not one of those who blindly support Tolkien. I actually have serious disagreements with JRRT, particularly with his famous saying of history as a "long defeat". I would love to cross-examine the good professor on what he meant by that.
So I do somewhat sympathize with GRRM when he said that he wanted to argue with Professor Tolkien, because frankly I want to argue with Professor Tolkien too. But this quote is damning, to be honest. I'm not a fantasy aficionado like you are, and I missed the GoT hype train when it first came out (Thanks be to God for that), so I'm not really an expert here. But for what it's worth, I think you're spot on here. Given the reputation he had crafted for himself and his works, I don't think it's uncharitable to claim that Martin is resentful of Tolkien.
I’d say Martin is jealous.
But that said Tolkien’s statement is incomplete, here’s the rest; “I am a Christian…so that I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’ — though it contains (and in a legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.”
So that what he is saying is commenting on the return of Christ. And that there are to be many defeats along the way, even as there are to be victories. Along the way according to Christian belief; Satan in time gets the upper hand, but then in the end we Christians, we servants of Christ ultimately claim victory.
Thank you for the shout out.
As for martin....
The less said the better. I have read his work, I was not impressed, It seemed to me that the focuspoint, theme was betrayal. Betrayal is the highest morality and motivator, followed by ruthless desire. Robert Jordan did a much better job world building, the Wheel of Time is better written, has a far more intricate plot, better characters, celebrates honor, integrity, truth, love, courage, duty, sacrifice.
I read Martins series once. I have reread Jordans Wheel of time multiple times.
David Weber, John Ringo, S M Stirling, all deserve far more attention and thought than martin.
As for anti heroes, Moorcocks Eternal Champion series of stories is beyond epic.
Agreed, about betrayal being the main theme and motivation of his work. It’s what led to some confusion on my part as to why his character would sometimes contradict themselves and their personalities all of a sudden.
Yeah Jordan was a great-world-builder as were the others you mentioned.
Granted, that’s an accurate reflection of Clown World. But who the fuck wants more Clown World?
Good point I suppose
I (mostly) enjoyed the GoT books for what they were, but Martin is undeniably overrated. Also, 99.9% of the sex in his books is either incest or flat out rape, which just goes to show how he really feels about sex and women.
Sadly yes, he’s got some issues.
His books are the Michael Bay stories of fantasy, and he is overrated. Which is why the more he’s pushed forward the more I buck back (I’m French, it’s instinctive for us).
That said, wonder if he ever considered therapy.
I often asked myself what if we remove all the sex from GoT. What’s left? Then you have your answer. Also, Sex sells…
Good point
How GRR Martin ever got his garbage pooblished is a mystery to me. And any who dare compare him to the likes of Tolkien are fools; Martin isn't fit to mention Tolkien's name.
Martin is another sick old hippie pervert vomiting up his nihilism and degeneracy in verbose, excessive, sickening books. He's got a lot of it to puke, apparently. How it ever became 'popular' I'll never understand.
I do agree for the most part, but if I had to guess how he got popular I’ll say it was the Media. When you have the whole of HBO/WB, Amazon and the rest of the big companies backing you up and pushing you forward in front of every person’s nose you’re bound to make millions and become popular.
Proof that manufactured popularity is not quality, nor is it a true reflection of anything other than a corrupt system putting on display the diseased ramblings of an equally corrupt and sickened soul.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
The sad thing is that with modern hollyweird pumping out nihilism and postmodernist garbage, they have normalized a misguided disdain for songs, poetry, and inspirational heroic archetypes in storytelling.
Agreed, and it is the job of true artist and writers to pump out even more anti-postmodernist stuff and love of heroism.
Which is why they are EVIL and MUST BE DESTROYED!
I will risk quoting my own writing: "All bad things must come to an end."
Indeed
I have the not-so-sneaky suspicion that Sir Sean might like my work.
It’s called tard publishing, and it’s why I will continue mocking anyone who pursues it.
How can you hate such an incredible, paradigm-shifting series so much?
It isn’t hate but exhaustion, and the paradigm didn’t need shifting.
The same way you hate any trash.
Calling GoT trash is an absolutely wild opinion. I wonder what you think of all the other high fantasy that is ACTUALLY trash, like Eragon
GoT is worse than Eragon, not that Eragon sets a high bar and I would say that there are few high-fantasies that are trash.
To call GoT trash is no great insult rather because of the mindset of the writer, the lack of themes, the shallowness of the motifs and characters and the mediocrity of the style it is fitting to call it such.
There is NOTHING wild about calling an ace an ace. GoT IS trash. It’s pointless, filled with sexual perversions, torture, and sickened people. It has more to do with the author’s base character than anything else. It’s lit-porn with more than average degeneracy.
Never read Eragon.
I have it was mediocre at best, not sure why it’s even being brought up. Though it was not as pointless as GoT in my estimation.
I haven't read Martin but I will say that a lot of modern fantasy has adopted the grimdark setting and that's made me step away from the new stuff. I want chivalry and goodness and fighting for what is right; I'm sick of the morally gray characters and people surviving in a world that's already dead and faithless. What's wrong with a good vs. evil story? And as a Christian, I could really do with more fantasy stories that don't bash monotheistic religions every chance they get.
This is why I write what I want to write; I write chivalric stories, and tales of love and hope and faith. Honestly, I’m not sure my tales are Christian but they’ve been infused with Christian themes and motifs so maybe I’m headed in that direction with time hahaha.
But anyways, yeah we need less grimdark these days and more hope.
Chivalry and goodness? Say no more. I have you covered :D
Lol
You are yet to read some of my newer science fantasy stories, mon ami. Shall I post one today?
Sure, please do so
There is one from my 1st Anthology collection, the title story of A Mandate Of Sword And Railgun.
Ah ok
Years ago I saw Martin on Stephen Colbert talking trash about Tolkien for not writing sex scenes, and immediately lost all respect. Shitting is an important part of life too, maybe all books should include scenes with characters on the toilet to be legitimate, by Martin's logic.
That is exactly how his logic works, if one takes it to its logical conclusion and it is what he wants so that we tear out what is essential and put in what is not into Fantasy/Mythology. I’ve seen that clip of him with Colbert and it caused my own respect for him to drop and disappear.
I'm going on the disagree here, so strap in!
That's not to say I agree with Martin, or wish to defend him. I've put his work down twice, and I think his characters lack depth. It's not for me.
However, I don't think you've given Martin a fair trial here.
I think you've extrapolated too much from the quote, and I think, to some degree (not in an absolute sense, but in places), you've conflated sex and depravity.
I think it's also unfair to distil Martin's works down to sex and depravity. There is a good chunk of heroism and goodness in his work, though there is obviously a fair amount of darkness.
Where I think you have grounds is the morality or worth in turning that depravity into base entertainment, which is what his work does at times. Clearly, it's gratuitous.
But remember. Whatever Martin writes down in a book, the real world is worse. It's a shame Martin cheapened those darker elements instead of using them to say something more important. But clearly, there's a market for it, so maybe Martin isn't really the problem, but a reflection of wider society. I guess it gets circular.
Fair point, maybe the problem is indeed circular, I think I’ve given him a fair trial, but think you’ve come in with an interesting perspective that’s worth considering also. I do appreciate you’re words both critical of him and my essay, mon ami.
Good comment, esp. about the readers.
Thanks
I know one Tolkien character who was obsessed with sex: Wormtongue
And look what happened to him haha
Well said. I think Brandon Sanderson and his mentor(In spirit mostly) Robert Jordan are more apt to be described as American Tolkien's.
And the formers work has recieved many of the same criticisms from media that Martin is levying against Tolkien.
Robert Jordan is dead and the media rights to his books are unfortunately owned by a Hollywood studio so unless your willing to read his 14 book series, the last 3 of which were finished by Sanderson after Jordan asked him on his deathbed to finish the series, most people will know nothing about other than what Amazon shamefully puts out.
I would say Robert E. Howard came first and that Tolkien is the Howard of England. Howard also wrote the Hour of the Dragon in 1936 I believe and it has the same plot as LOTR.
That said, I guess Jordan’s a good contender, though his work is sci-fi given it takes place in the future.
Thats fair with regard to Howard, I'd never considered that before.
I'd have to hard disagree about Jordans work being Science fiction though. Merely saying a story takes place in the future doesn't make something science fiction. Terry Brooks Shannara series is a post-apocalyptic story that takes place in our world but almost no one would call it science fiction because it has swords, magic, elves, dwarves etc.
Hahaha thanks about Howard.
And that’s fair regarding Brookes & Jordan. I need to get around to reading Shannara.
Wow, I haven't thought about Lloyd Alexander in ages - thanks for the reference!
Anytime
Life is very full of bowel movements. Should a novel be considered incomplete without a literary consideration of the nature of a structurally perfect stool?
Exactement, it drives us often to noble things, but also some pretty nasty, evil actions.
Ah, yer killin’ me. 😂🤣
Lmao least I can do
Why are ugly people so obsessed with sex lately?
Not sure
The usual. Old as the hills, can’t get any. Besides, Martin knows he cheated his way with the usual, base dirty tricks to attract the crowds.
True, very true