Its not high fantasy, but I have always loved Arthur Weasley from Harry Potter. An all around good dude, loves his wife and kids, and works his ass off for them. Maybe a little too passive but when push comes to shove he is completely devoted to his moral compass and guides his family to become the bedrock of the resistance against evil. 10/10
Darn it! How could I forget him and Sirius Black, both of them the best father figures Rowling ever wrote and semi-decent characters. Thanks for mentioning them Salena and yeah good choice!
In animation, there are quite a few fathers who are very ill-mannered, out of touch or plain stupid, so they haven't contributed entirely positively to improving the stature of fathers as a whole. But there are also many fathers or father-like figures in the genre who are exceptions to the rule.
On the O'Jays song "Family Reunion", singer Eddie Levert speaks about fathers as "the head....the leader...the director" of their familial units. The worst ones try incompetently to be that, but the best ones just...are.
Very good point, I had not thought to include animation but it has defied the odds and done a fantastic job doing so over the years! Sure it occasionally gives in, but you’ve raised a very good point here.
Western comedy animation suffers from this significantly, with Hank Hill proving to be one of the very few exceptions. There are times where the writers do break his character for the sake of a plotline or joke, but compared to the likes of Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, or pretty much any other dad in adult comedy animation particularly, these are extremely minor deviances. Hank's a flawed man who tries his absolute best to instill good morals into Bobby and find ways to bond with a son that's very different from the person he was at Bobby's age. By comparison, Homer and Peter used to be bumbling but well meaning fools who made a real effort to do right by their families, but became bumbling fools who are harmful idiots at best and outright malicious at worst.
These examples also line up with the point you make using the O'Jays song: Homer and Peter both try incompetently to be the head of the house, or at worst, make no attempt and use their families as tools for their own entertainment. Hank is the head of his house, there's no doubt there. If there were, then the King of the Hill wouldn't have made the effort it did to show that when people questioned Hank's role as the head of his house, they were almost always wrong to do so.
I'm really just piggybacking off what David was saying there. That decline was one I witnessed in real time over the years, and it's a key reason why of those three shows, King of the Hill is the only one I still return to regularly.
Hank was who I was thinking of in terms of positive portrayals of fathers. Along with Professor Utonium from "The Powerpuff Girls" (he may not be thought of as a father per se, but he's a damn good one).
The Professor is a good one, yeah. He's also one of the better examples of a single parent, constantly trying to be as present as he can for his girls while also providing for them. Of course, nowadays the biggest fantasy about that show is him being able to do that by himself while working from home.
I thought he was one, so he counts. He seemed like a pretty good one (it’s been 20 years since I’ve thought about him so don’t much remember him beyond the fact that many scenes seemed to show him passing down wisdom and hugging his daughters).
Very spot on essay. I don't think it's just fantasy but also fiction in general. Maybe it's the collapsing of fatherhood in real life or maybe it's deliberate, but in any case it seems like pop fiction can't resist portraying fathers as either evil or incompetent. It's rather tiresome.
And I hope I'm not tooting my own horn too much but my fiction do have fatherhood as a theme. A big plot point of The Santara Commentaries is how the main character Yu was adopted by King Aron and became a member of the royal family, and from then on, well that's spoilers for future entries. Then there's my novel Inquisitor's Promise (admittedly that's sci-fi, but it's more science fantasy, heh) where the point of the story is the main character Aeneas carrying on his father's final mission. While his father was dead for most of the story he had left a major imprint on Aeneas, who was clearly his father's son. In fact now that I think about, fatherhood was a very pervasive theme involving many other characters in that book.
Post that first chapter’s link, when I go to read Jarl’s Son, I want to read Santara Chronicles alongside it. I’ll need that first chapter open as a tab on my pc, Michael. I need the visual reminder, you’ve just made me want to read it even more mon ami.
Do so and I’ll include it in my next mega-Substack Fantasy Writers post.
I agree... But I feel weird saying that since my book goes against that. The parental figures I represent in my book are not exactly shining examples of how things should be. (Which I worry people will take as a statement against my own parents, which is not the case at all.)
But I do have a future book that will be focused on the theme of brotherhood, where I think in many ways the older (adoptive) brother will fill the father archetype. In a project not set in my main world, there will also be themes of adoption that can set up a good father figure.
I think representing healthy (still flawed, but growing) father figures is especially important for those who grew up without having that example. It fills the world with a light that's too often missing from people's lives. Your related article on Treasure Planet was great to read for a flawed but growing father figure.
Thanks that Treasure Planet article was my brother’s though, with this account shared by us (all Disney and fairy-story essays are his).
As to an older brother fulfilling the role look back to Brother Bear; Sitka fulfills the role, and there are other examples of it in stories. In a way Tai from Digimon is this to his sister Hikari, or Matt with TK, there’s also in a way Hector in Troy to Paris. These are all modern examples though.
I've seen this in every genre for every age range; parents, especially good and alive ones, are just not that common. There are probably more famous orphans than characters who have a good relationship with their parent(s). For Mother's and Father's Day, I shared a list of book moms/dads that meet a few criteria and I had to dig deep to find those good parents. It's a troubling trend and one I hope is changed in the future.
A culture that idolises infantilised men will get only that. If the only Heroes are unattached wanderers, that is all the culture will forge. If a culture fantasises only about coming of age fantasies, it will be only produce men who dream of being boys instead of men who dream of being men...
In WATCHER of the DAMNED, we start with a Man who dreams of becoming a Father - and we end with a Man who becomes the Hero. Becoming a Father must become part of Our Heroes Journey again, or we will produce no Heroes.
This got me thinking about fathers in the fantasy I've read...
I can immediately recall only one truly good father (the princess in Brandon Sanderson's 'Elantris' has a great dad).
After some thought, I've come up with a couple more (Adamat from Brian McClellan's 'Powder Mage' series and Vimes from Discworld), but the fact it took this long helps the point.
I wonder if part of the problem is that a good fantasy story often involves characters leaving home, so mentions of the father are limited to flashbacks.
Could be that, though I’d point out that stories where the character leaves home is good, it’s a necessary step in adulthood to an extent.
But yeah good functioning, healthy father figures are rare, usually those ones are killed off and I’m curious about stories that keep them alive even if only for a part of the story.
I wasn't saying that characters leaving home was bad, I was pointing to it as a contributor to a situation.
Imo you hit on another thing with your reply: it's more interesting when good fathers die. That way the author can explore the development of the depatrified character.
I know, I was just commenting/agreeing with you sorry if it sounded like I took offence or disagreed, wasn’t my intention. The autism got to me there and I didn’t think my reply through enough. Sorry.
As to fathers dying mid-story yeah that can be used for good-character development, alternatively it’s also nice like in Dracula to see the ‘father-figure’ (Van Helsing) live to become a grandfather.
I'm also struck by the prevalence of "magic mentors" who double as father figures for effectively orphaned characters.
A classic example is (38 yo) Kelsier in Brandon Sanderson's 'Mistborn: The Final Empire', who rescues a 16 year old Vin from a man who is about to beat her to death, shows her a different life, and teaches her how to use her magic. He is a deeply flawed man, but is absolutely a father figure for our heroine.
Good point, it reocurs likely because we latch-key kids were brought up without parents (I was but I know others who weren’t). So might have something to do with that, that said we Yers and Zoomers will have to make sure to be present for our kids and to share these lovely stories with our kids.
Not shaming Baby-Boomers or Xers or anything, just commenting on what went down in the 80s-early 00s.
COOL! Really leading the charge aren’t you? I gotta admit I did the same thing, though I like father-son bonds I must confess to really liking a good father-daughter bond as of late. Gonna have to check it out down the road.
It's kismet that you mention fatherhood and write an essay about it. I've recently noticed something in my stories that I hadn't planned and it caught me by surprise. The relationship between Rhyslin and Rana was originally conceived as a lover's bond, but more and more, Rhyslin has started becoming a father figure to a young woman that never had a father. It might add another bond to the tales that I hadn't planned for and possibly could open up new bonds when other people join the family that's slowly taking shape.
I completely agree that fictional fathers are so important, and we should highlight them more. In my own life, I had (what I understand to be) the less common experience of my dad being the far more emotional safe parental figure, so it's always been really important to me to feature realistically loving fathers whenever I can. In The Legend of Leanna Page, I've got at least three in there already lol
Though granted, no one likes or wants the boomeresque take of have your children solve your problems for you, which is why they only appear at the end, so they aren't just serving as leverage for the enemy. Secure their future first and then have them.
Hear, hear! Well said! While I appreciate a good, non-graphic love story - it is what I tend to focus on! - those with strong fathers and mothers add a whole new and necessary depth of love, a journey many of us may eventually make ourselves.
With the current state of the culture, we need every good character reference we can muster - father, mother, husband, wife, child, brother, sister, and friend. Love stories with married couples and children have a different kind of beauty that are so much more compelling, I think. I'm excited that several of my upcoming stories feature fathers or a journey to fatherhood!
Glad you approve, yeah I’m trying to showcase both single and married dads in my stories along with married mothers’.
For single mothers’ I don’t have much right now, but have some stories that will come out in awhile, but over-all do agree we need more stories about stable parents.
Wonderful! Thank you for doing so! I'm surprised that I've enjoyed writing fathers, single or married, more than writing mother characters, so I really love reading stories with fathers in them.
Yeah, I’m surprised at how fun it is to write them also hahaha, glad I’m not alone. Like I said, I’d like to write a few more stories about mothers’ as I’ve written a lot of fathers and think it’s more than time I write stories about moms.
Its not high fantasy, but I have always loved Arthur Weasley from Harry Potter. An all around good dude, loves his wife and kids, and works his ass off for them. Maybe a little too passive but when push comes to shove he is completely devoted to his moral compass and guides his family to become the bedrock of the resistance against evil. 10/10
Darn it! How could I forget him and Sirius Black, both of them the best father figures Rowling ever wrote and semi-decent characters. Thanks for mentioning them Salena and yeah good choice!
In animation, there are quite a few fathers who are very ill-mannered, out of touch or plain stupid, so they haven't contributed entirely positively to improving the stature of fathers as a whole. But there are also many fathers or father-like figures in the genre who are exceptions to the rule.
On the O'Jays song "Family Reunion", singer Eddie Levert speaks about fathers as "the head....the leader...the director" of their familial units. The worst ones try incompetently to be that, but the best ones just...are.
Very good point, I had not thought to include animation but it has defied the odds and done a fantastic job doing so over the years! Sure it occasionally gives in, but you’ve raised a very good point here.
Western comedy animation suffers from this significantly, with Hank Hill proving to be one of the very few exceptions. There are times where the writers do break his character for the sake of a plotline or joke, but compared to the likes of Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, or pretty much any other dad in adult comedy animation particularly, these are extremely minor deviances. Hank's a flawed man who tries his absolute best to instill good morals into Bobby and find ways to bond with a son that's very different from the person he was at Bobby's age. By comparison, Homer and Peter used to be bumbling but well meaning fools who made a real effort to do right by their families, but became bumbling fools who are harmful idiots at best and outright malicious at worst.
These examples also line up with the point you make using the O'Jays song: Homer and Peter both try incompetently to be the head of the house, or at worst, make no attempt and use their families as tools for their own entertainment. Hank is the head of his house, there's no doubt there. If there were, then the King of the Hill wouldn't have made the effort it did to show that when people questioned Hank's role as the head of his house, they were almost always wrong to do so.
Hadn’t thought to look outside the fantasy genre but good point.
I'm really just piggybacking off what David was saying there. That decline was one I witnessed in real time over the years, and it's a key reason why of those three shows, King of the Hill is the only one I still return to regularly.
Ohh okay, fair enough and well said.
Hank was who I was thinking of in terms of positive portrayals of fathers. Along with Professor Utonium from "The Powerpuff Girls" (he may not be thought of as a father per se, but he's a damn good one).
The Professor is a good one, yeah. He's also one of the better examples of a single parent, constantly trying to be as present as he can for his girls while also providing for them. Of course, nowadays the biggest fantasy about that show is him being able to do that by himself while working from home.
I thought he was one, so he counts. He seemed like a pretty good one (it’s been 20 years since I’ve thought about him so don’t much remember him beyond the fact that many scenes seemed to show him passing down wisdom and hugging his daughters).
Bandit, the dad from the kids show Bluey, has been the best representation of a father I’ve seen in years.
Not familiar with him or that show, but will look it up and take your word for it mon ami.
It’s a show for toddlers and young kids but it’s fantastic. Winning awards and all sorts.
Ohh ok
Honestly give an episode or two a go. Only 10 minutes long and you’ll see how the dad is.
Understood
Agreed. Bandit IS the Hero!💖
lol
Very spot on essay. I don't think it's just fantasy but also fiction in general. Maybe it's the collapsing of fatherhood in real life or maybe it's deliberate, but in any case it seems like pop fiction can't resist portraying fathers as either evil or incompetent. It's rather tiresome.
And I hope I'm not tooting my own horn too much but my fiction do have fatherhood as a theme. A big plot point of The Santara Commentaries is how the main character Yu was adopted by King Aron and became a member of the royal family, and from then on, well that's spoilers for future entries. Then there's my novel Inquisitor's Promise (admittedly that's sci-fi, but it's more science fantasy, heh) where the point of the story is the main character Aeneas carrying on his father's final mission. While his father was dead for most of the story he had left a major imprint on Aeneas, who was clearly his father's son. In fact now that I think about, fatherhood was a very pervasive theme involving many other characters in that book.
All this is to say that I'm doing my part, lol.
Post that first chapter’s link, when I go to read Jarl’s Son, I want to read Santara Chronicles alongside it. I’ll need that first chapter open as a tab on my pc, Michael. I need the visual reminder, you’ve just made me want to read it even more mon ami.
Do so and I’ll include it in my next mega-Substack Fantasy Writers post.
Sure thing. Here it is: https://germanicus.substack.com/p/the-santara-commentaries-book-1
Got it, I’ll start reading towards the end of this week after I’m done prepping for my LOTR podcast and after I finish Tranith Argan Book 1.
I agree... But I feel weird saying that since my book goes against that. The parental figures I represent in my book are not exactly shining examples of how things should be. (Which I worry people will take as a statement against my own parents, which is not the case at all.)
But I do have a future book that will be focused on the theme of brotherhood, where I think in many ways the older (adoptive) brother will fill the father archetype. In a project not set in my main world, there will also be themes of adoption that can set up a good father figure.
I think representing healthy (still flawed, but growing) father figures is especially important for those who grew up without having that example. It fills the world with a light that's too often missing from people's lives. Your related article on Treasure Planet was great to read for a flawed but growing father figure.
Thanks that Treasure Planet article was my brother’s though, with this account shared by us (all Disney and fairy-story essays are his).
As to an older brother fulfilling the role look back to Brother Bear; Sitka fulfills the role, and there are other examples of it in stories. In a way Tai from Digimon is this to his sister Hikari, or Matt with TK, there’s also in a way Hector in Troy to Paris. These are all modern examples though.
Great post!
I've seen this in every genre for every age range; parents, especially good and alive ones, are just not that common. There are probably more famous orphans than characters who have a good relationship with their parent(s). For Mother's and Father's Day, I shared a list of book moms/dads that meet a few criteria and I had to dig deep to find those good parents. It's a troubling trend and one I hope is changed in the future.
I get that and good job finding some that are out there, did you do up a post of those sort of books?
Yep. I wrote two different posts and shared them here on my Substack.
Awesome! Well feel free to post them in my comment sections I really don’t mind.
Thanks!
Here’s the one for dads:
https://damselinthelibrary.substack.com/p/best-dads-in-books
And the one for moms:
https://damselinthelibrary.substack.com/p/best-moms-in-books
Gotcha, will take a look at them.
A culture that idolises infantilised men will get only that. If the only Heroes are unattached wanderers, that is all the culture will forge. If a culture fantasises only about coming of age fantasies, it will be only produce men who dream of being boys instead of men who dream of being men...
In WATCHER of the DAMNED, we start with a Man who dreams of becoming a Father - and we end with a Man who becomes the Hero. Becoming a Father must become part of Our Heroes Journey again, or we will produce no Heroes.
Very well said
Thank you - I am so glad you broached this subject. We need Fathers.
This got me thinking about fathers in the fantasy I've read...
I can immediately recall only one truly good father (the princess in Brandon Sanderson's 'Elantris' has a great dad).
After some thought, I've come up with a couple more (Adamat from Brian McClellan's 'Powder Mage' series and Vimes from Discworld), but the fact it took this long helps the point.
I wonder if part of the problem is that a good fantasy story often involves characters leaving home, so mentions of the father are limited to flashbacks.
Could be that, though I’d point out that stories where the character leaves home is good, it’s a necessary step in adulthood to an extent.
But yeah good functioning, healthy father figures are rare, usually those ones are killed off and I’m curious about stories that keep them alive even if only for a part of the story.
I wasn't saying that characters leaving home was bad, I was pointing to it as a contributor to a situation.
Imo you hit on another thing with your reply: it's more interesting when good fathers die. That way the author can explore the development of the depatrified character.
I know, I was just commenting/agreeing with you sorry if it sounded like I took offence or disagreed, wasn’t my intention. The autism got to me there and I didn’t think my reply through enough. Sorry.
As to fathers dying mid-story yeah that can be used for good-character development, alternatively it’s also nice like in Dracula to see the ‘father-figure’ (Van Helsing) live to become a grandfather.
I'm also struck by the prevalence of "magic mentors" who double as father figures for effectively orphaned characters.
A classic example is (38 yo) Kelsier in Brandon Sanderson's 'Mistborn: The Final Empire', who rescues a 16 year old Vin from a man who is about to beat her to death, shows her a different life, and teaches her how to use her magic. He is a deeply flawed man, but is absolutely a father figure for our heroine.
Good point, it reocurs likely because we latch-key kids were brought up without parents (I was but I know others who weren’t). So might have something to do with that, that said we Yers and Zoomers will have to make sure to be present for our kids and to share these lovely stories with our kids.
Not shaming Baby-Boomers or Xers or anything, just commenting on what went down in the 80s-early 00s.
Hey, no need to apologise. It's just a common or garden misunderstanding, of the sort that happens every day :).
BTW I was just trying to clarify, and I'm sorry if it came across as negative or defensive.
This is getting too huggy-feely for me, so... The Mother Krynn didn't take offense last night.
Lmao np, and hahaha nope I had feared I had offended and so rushed out my apology.
But anyways Momma Krynn isn’t present right now, she’s too busy gushing with the gf over Momma Krynn’s new dog.
My series has her heroine’s father in a supportive and protective role … and I have plans to expand the character in book 3. Stay tuned!
COOL! Really leading the charge aren’t you? I gotta admit I did the same thing, though I like father-son bonds I must confess to really liking a good father-daughter bond as of late. Gonna have to check it out down the road.
It's kismet that you mention fatherhood and write an essay about it. I've recently noticed something in my stories that I hadn't planned and it caught me by surprise. The relationship between Rhyslin and Rana was originally conceived as a lover's bond, but more and more, Rhyslin has started becoming a father figure to a young woman that never had a father. It might add another bond to the tales that I hadn't planned for and possibly could open up new bonds when other people join the family that's slowly taking shape.
That’s awesome! Such bonds always improve a story.
I completely agree that fictional fathers are so important, and we should highlight them more. In my own life, I had (what I understand to be) the less common experience of my dad being the far more emotional safe parental figure, so it's always been really important to me to feature realistically loving fathers whenever I can. In The Legend of Leanna Page, I've got at least three in there already lol
I’m sold on the importance and greatness of your story just with that description!
Tomorrow.
Though granted, no one likes or wants the boomeresque take of have your children solve your problems for you, which is why they only appear at the end, so they aren't just serving as leverage for the enemy. Secure their future first and then have them.
Good point
Hear, hear! Well said! While I appreciate a good, non-graphic love story - it is what I tend to focus on! - those with strong fathers and mothers add a whole new and necessary depth of love, a journey many of us may eventually make ourselves.
With the current state of the culture, we need every good character reference we can muster - father, mother, husband, wife, child, brother, sister, and friend. Love stories with married couples and children have a different kind of beauty that are so much more compelling, I think. I'm excited that several of my upcoming stories feature fathers or a journey to fatherhood!
Glad you approve, yeah I’m trying to showcase both single and married dads in my stories along with married mothers’.
For single mothers’ I don’t have much right now, but have some stories that will come out in awhile, but over-all do agree we need more stories about stable parents.
Wonderful! Thank you for doing so! I'm surprised that I've enjoyed writing fathers, single or married, more than writing mother characters, so I really love reading stories with fathers in them.
Yeah, I’m surprised at how fun it is to write them also hahaha, glad I’m not alone. Like I said, I’d like to write a few more stories about mothers’ as I’ve written a lot of fathers and think it’s more than time I write stories about moms.
I’m looking forward to seeing them!
Merci!
He probably makes good royalties from any patents he holds.
Good point